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gingerwizard

05-30-2007, 12:23 PM Post subject: 7-Stud-8-or-better

#1 (permalink)

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When do you give up here?

Stud Hi/Lo $0.50/$1
Hero $30
Player1: $25
Player2: $20
Dealt to Hero

Player1
x x

Player2
x x

8 players post ante $0.10
player2 brings in $0.25, hero raises $0.50, player1 raises $0.75, player2 calls $0.5, hero calls $0.25.
4th street
Hero:

, player1

, player2

pot = $3.05
hero bets $0.50, player1 raises $1, player2 calls, hero raises $1.50, player1 calls, player2 calls.
pot = $7.55
5th street
Hero

, player1:

, player2

Hero bets $1, player1 calls $1, player2 raises $2, hero calls, player1 calls,
Pot = $13.55
6th street
Hero

, player1

, player2

player1 bets $1, player 2 raises $2, hero calls, player1 raises $3, player2 raises $4, hero folds
pot = $23.55

final boards:

Hero:

player1:

x x
player2

x x

How did I play this?

Thoughts: I fold because player1 seems to think he can beat the straight that player 2 almost certainly has. I'm drawing to half the pot with my flush and possibly to a Jack (because it seems obvious to me from the action that player1 has the case A), but I may be drawing dead to queens full looking at player1s raise.

Looking back I'm not sure I should have been this aggressive with the high.

Comments on all streets would be welcome!

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bigspenda73

05-30-2007, 04:54 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Yea, you went bonkers with only a hope of winning half the pot. The split games are all about scooping and not getting scooped.

Just wondering as I may want to learn this game but you had an open pair on 4th street and only bet $.50. Aren't you allowed to bet $1 here? I really don't know the rules of Stud though so I am most likely wrong.

zenbitz

05-30-2007, 04:55 PM

#3 (permalink)

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with no flush draw, this is an easy fold after the 1st raise on 6th street.
man could he really have AQ or Q6 or 66 or QQ in the hole? Given his agression prior to the hitting the 6, I think we can rule out q6 or 66.
Wierd that he didn't raise on 5th street... he must have put you on JJJ or only had a pair of Qs.

It's capped though - right, you have to call $2 into $24... not sure you can fold with any chance you are drawing live. Is there any way player 1 has a 23 in the hole and drawing to a 6-high with a shot at high? could player 2 have a low but not straight yet (obv. 6 outs).

gingerwizard

05-30-2007, 07:34 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

You can only bet one set amount, there are no half bets. Think it is a small bet on 4th street.

I went bonkers very early, i believe correctly. player1 obviously has a high draw and not much of a low, so if i can get a lot of his money in while im ahead of his high then I have a lot of equity. Problem is when player2's straight looks likely. He is unlikely to bluff here without at least a great low (because the action has been so aggressive), and since most of the A's are out, the 2 looks likely.

The 2nd queen for player 1 is the terrible card, and I should have check/called from there or check/folded. Not sure which though.

Obviously scooping is the main aim in this game, but im not so certain yet that playing for half of a multiway when you are strong in that half, isnt where some of the money in the game has to come from.

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zenbitz

05-30-2007, 09:11 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Just thinking it through... I guess with no low at all you should simply not call the raise on 6th street.

bigspenda73

05-30-2007, 09:41 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gingerwizard

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Not to take anything away from your thread but is the open pair rule just applicate to Stud and not Stud 8/b?

swiggidy

05-30-2007, 10:28 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gingerwizard

Obviously scooping is the main aim in this game, but im not so certain yet that playing for half of a multiway when you are strong in that half, isnt where some of the money in the game has to come from.

I believe this is true. Along a similar line though, you need to make sure you're not likely to be outdrawn when you start pumping. If the pot gets big they may be correct to call down, trying to complete.

If you have 2 pair on the flop in Omaha pumping is often in-correct because you are so easily outdrawn with almost no redraw of your own.

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

ihategnomes

05-31-2007, 06:40 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Do you have any reads? Does the guy with 765 play bad or gets real aggressive with made lows? Its actually not a bad spot to be aggressive with just the low against 2 high hands that are starying at an ugly board. Hero should fold 6th street the first time around.

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ihategnomes

05-31-2007, 06:42 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Not to take anything away from your thread but is the open pair rule just applicate to Stud and not Stud 8/b?

Correct.

Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
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dsaxton

06-07-2007, 08:44 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Since Player 2 has 3 premium low cards showing on 5th street, it is likely that you are being free-rolled by a made low with a straight draw, or are up against a pair and a low draw, both of which crush your equity, so you should be checking and calling on the basis of pot odds, not betting. Your goal at this point should simply be to get to showdown as cheaply as possible.

Edit: I misread the hand history. Fold 5th when faced with two bets. You are drawing dead for low, and probably a huge underdog for high as well (you would probably need to catch one of the two remaining jacks, since the aces are most likely dead). Even if by some miracle Player 1 only has dry aces, you are still playing for half the pot and are possibly getting scooped by Player 2.

Fnord

06-07-2007, 10:31 PM

#11 (permalink)

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6th street is a pretty easy check, both of your opponents caught almost perfect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

TLR

06-13-2007, 11:32 AM

#12 (permalink)

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3rd street: I think you should cap here, you have a J showing, so the guy with A can reraise you with AxA, KKA, QQA, 3 low etc..
With pocket A's in this situation I want to chase out the probable low with 4 (trips is a far fetched option)
4th Street: I think you played it fine, your reraise should make the Q guy think you have trips, it may slow him down a bit, the likely holding for him is AAQ probably, the other guy has a low draw but not a made low.
5th street: you should check here, if player 1 checks and player 2 bets your options are pretty much fold or raise.
raising may chase the other guy out, then you check/call and hope to get 1/2 the pot. Leading out has little chance of getting the other high to fold and only builds the pot for the presumed low
6th street: You should check and call one bet, the Q probably gave villian eiter better 2 pair or at least trips, with a very remote chance of KKQQ, and he does not seem to go anywhere, the presumed low caught a great card, your flush draw and remote boat option should promote you to try to get a cheap card, the low is definitly betting. If you are faced with two bets then fold, but again leading out only builds a pot when you are probably behind.

dsaxton

06-13-2007, 01:54 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TLR

Capping 3rd street makes no sense. He has a one way hand that may not even be best, and is dead if the other player does hold the case aces, and there is a player going low in the pot. If the player going low makes any type of a low hand (which will happen fairly often), you only win half the pot, and even when he doesn't, you still have to hope your high hand ends up as best, which has a limited chance of improvement given the cards that are likely out. These combined factors should incline you towards caution, not aggression.

The idea that you might be able to force out a player going low here is foolish. No low hand ever folds (he already cold-called two bets, why would he fold for two more now that he's getting better odds?), and he would actually be making a huge mistake in doing so, as he has a lot of equity against two players going high.

I don't think reraising 4th street makes much sense either. I would just call and see how boards develop on 5th street. You have a player raising you after you paired your doorcard (meaning he either completely sucks or has you beat), and you also have a player going low who caught good (if he has a hand like 3-4-5-6, you are coin-flipping, and if we give him a hand as weak as 8-2-4-6, you are only a 60-40 favorite, against this player alone) . Overall, you have very poor expectation and should avoid building a big pot on this street.

I don't agree with your advice on 5th street either. The proper way to play the rest of this hand assuming we don't fill up, is checking and calling or checking and folding. The player going low's board has become too strong, and there is a strong chance that we are being free-rolled, while there is also the chance that our hand is not even good for high. Raising in this situation is basically akin to lighting money on fire.

Your advice on 6th street is reasonable. I didn't notice that he also has a flush draw. It seems sensible to chase for one bet, but he should have a pretty easy fold on the river if he misses.

TLR

06-13-2007, 05:48 PM

#14 (permalink)

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dsaxson wrote:

Quote:

The idea of capping 3rd street is to try to force the low hand out, if he sees the betting is capped he may fold on 3rd street and will probably fold if he catches bad on 4th street.
Vs the other player you are probably ahead and you have the advantage of deception as you know you have 2 aces and he doesnt

Quote:

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:54 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TLR wrote:
3rd street: I think you should cap here, you have a J showing, so the guy with A can reraise you with AxA, KKA, QQA, 3 low etc..
With pocket A's in this situation I want to chase out the probable low with 4 (trips is a far fetched option)
4th Street: I think you played it fine, your reraise should make the Q guy think you have trips, it may slow him down a bit, the likely holding for him is AAQ probably, the other guy has a low draw but not a made low.
5th street: you should check here, if player 1 checks and player 2 bets your options are pretty much fold or raise.
raising may chase the other guy out, then you check/call and hope to get 1/2 the pot. Leading out has little chance of getting the other high to fold and only builds the pot for the presumed low
6th street: You should check and call one bet, the Q probably gave villian eiter better 2 pair or at least trips, with a very remote chance of KKQQ, and he does not seem to go anywhere, the presumed low caught a great card, your flush draw and remote boat option should promote you to try to get a cheap card, the low is definitly betting. If you are faced with two bets then fold, but again leading out only builds a pot when you are probably behind.

Capping 3rd street makes no sense. He has a one way hand that may not even be best, and is dead if the other player does hold the case aces, and there is a player going low in the pot. If the player going low makes any type of a low hand (which will happen fairly often), you only win half the pot, and even when he doesn't, you still have to hope your high hand ends up as best, which has a limited chance of improvement given the cards that are likely out. These combined factors should incline you towards caution, not aggression.

The idea that you might be able to force out a player going low here is foolish. No low hand ever folds (he already cold-called two bets, why would he fold for two more now that he's getting better odds?), and he would actually be making a huge mistake in doing so, as he has a lot of equity against two players going high.

I don't think reraising 4th street makes much sense either. I would just call and see how boards develop on 5th street. You have a player raising you after you paired your doorcard (meaning he either completely sucks or has you beat), and you also have a player going low who caught good (if he has a hand like 3-4-5-6, you are coin-flipping, and if we give him a hand as weak as 8-2-4-6, you are only a 60-40 favorite, against this player alone) . Overall, you have very poor expectation and should avoid building a big pot on this street.

Villian may raise you because he has trips, or in order to figure out if his Aces up (or maybe even pair of aces) is good, you probably have the best hand now, so I dont think reraising is good

Quote:

I don't agree with your advice on 5th street either. The proper way to play the rest of this hand assuming we don't fill up, is checking and calling or checking and folding. The player going low's board has become too strong, and there is a strong chance that we are being free-rolled, while there is also the chance that our hand is not even good for high. Raising in this situation is basically akin to lighting money on fire.

I think the check-raise on 5th street may drive the other high hand out and give you a decent chance at half pot, and will also allow you to get to showdown pretty cheaply if you check-call on 6th and 7th. The way the hand develops you dont want to continue playing it 3 handed, assuming player 1 checks he probably does not have trips, since he should bet them, and therefore you may get him to lay down two pair. The pot is big enough already so it is worth trying this move for half a pot.

dsaxton

06-17-2007, 07:34 AM

#15 (permalink)

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TRL, you have to realize that this is a split pot game, and because of this, hands with little or no low potential typically shouldn't be played very strongly when there is at least one hand out that does (e.g., you don't jam with two pair when your opponent is showing low cards).

TLR

06-17-2007, 07:50 AM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

This is true in heads up, but this is a 3 way pot, with 2 going for high and a very big pot built at the early streets

overflow

06-25-2007, 08:44 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Maybe I'm missing something, but what was Hero's door card here?

bigspenda73

06-25-2007, 08:49 PM

#18 (permalink)

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:Js:

overflow

06-25-2007, 08:51 PM

#19 (permalink)

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then what were his two hole cards, it only says AsJs... *confused*

bigspenda73

06-25-2007, 08:55 PM

#20 (permalink)

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:Ad: :As:

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