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7 Card Stud Strategy...How to be profitable at lower limits?

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ttanaka

08-31-2004, 06:38 PM Post subject: 7 Card Stud Strategy...How to be profitable at lower limits?

#1 (permalink)

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Played 7 card stud online for the first time last night.

I've recently been studying the game, learning the in's and out's on basic strategy, etc. Unfortunately, I think what I've been reading and learning is really more for the higher stakes game. The $.50-$1 game seems extremely difficult to be consistently profitable...or even to beat the rake.

Can any of you guys beat this game consistently?

Maybe I'm used to NL hold'em, where 75% of my sessions are profitable, but it seems way more difficult to do in stud. Probably because I still suck at stud.

But this was my observation - no one ever folds. It doesn't even matter what you have showing. ie - if my door card is an A, and I have AK in the hole, and I raise right after the come-in bet, everyone behind me calls.

If I bet again on 4th, everyone calls. Maybe 1 or 2 guys drop out by the time it gets to the river. But it's impossible to narrow the field. I'm not looking to buy pots, cuz I know that just doesn't happen, but even to narrow the field to a heads-up game is impossible.

I guess what I'm asking, if any of you guys can help, is how can you really utilize strategy and tactics if everyone is calling you down to the river? Should I play higher stakes? I wish there was no limit 7 stud, then I know I could wreck shop.

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mike4066

08-31-2004, 06:44 PM

#2 (permalink)

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I'd have to say try poker stars.

The play at the .50/1 level is alot tighter there.
Even the .25/.50 is tighter than the .5/1 party table.

Main reason for that would be the fact that poker stars actually has Micro limits and the desperate and play everything types can play at the .04/.08 tables.

ttanaka

08-31-2004, 07:18 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Thanks Mike, I'll give PokerStars a shot tonight at 7-stud. If that doesn't work, I'll try the higher limits. And if that doesn't work, I'll go back to just playing NL hold'em.

mike4066

08-31-2004, 07:23 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Np, sorry I don't have any answers for beating the game.

I still don't know jack about it either.

Humphrind

08-31-2004, 07:26 PM

#5 (permalink)

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I am a self-taught stud player, and I have about the skill that you do, so I'm hesitant to give advice. I'll just give you my take on things, you are welcome to use it.

I look at making hands in stud, and making "mistakes"

My hole [

]

I am working on a

flush. I need two more

s but I can only make 2 mistakes.

4th st [

]

There is 1 mistake, I missed a

but since this paired my hole, I will not look at it as a full mistake. It still gives me a playable hand.

5th st [

]

Now I am on a totally different goal. I have all but missed my flush. I have 0 more mistakes that I can make troward my flush, but I also can catch a lot more cards for a great hand. With only the pair of 4s showing, I can hide my strength. So now that most of the cards are out, I'm not looking at "mistakes" I'm looking at catching outs. I'm looking for a

a J an A or a 4.

I have been keeping an eye on the other cards that people have, what is out there and what has been thrown away. Now is when I apply this information. How many of my outs are being used? What are my odds of catching? How strong is my hand without catching any of these?

As for playing against the others, use a lot of your limit knowledge. Bet for value, rarely bluff into a multi way pot. Check and call if you think you are going to be raised. etc. When people don't understand the game (i.e. newbies making the switch to stud) they play really loose, this lowers your odds to take pots, but increases your odds to take big pots.

I have seen the biggest suckouts in stud. I have also seen the biggest morons in stud.
Player 1 has 3 aces showing
Player 2 calls him all the way down
Player 1 flips over his hole cards and his best hand is trip aces.
Player 2 mucks because he cannot beat trip aces.
How could player 2 call a 6th st bet, let alone a river bet?

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.

Krapp

08-31-2004, 08:35 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 313

I started out at .50c stud games on Paradise and noticed a consistant profit after a months at it. Heres a summary, not suggesting its sound or anything...

(1) If too many folks are calling the river, its probably time to move. I would prefer HtoH or 3-ways with med 2pair+, with any chance of winning.
(2) HtoH, 2pair normally wins for me. Ill bet them to the river. Maybe med 2-pair, I would check the river.
(3) With any dealt pair JJ+, I would raise and bet up to 5th street. If i dont improve, I would check out to the river (in general) and fold to any bet.
(4) HtoH, I avoid 4card straight/flush draws and fold them with any bet. Although, I might try a check/raise on 4rth and try and buy a card on 5th and 6th street. Straight/Flush draws with 2+ other folks in, I will play out.
(5) I would generally not bet any med 2pair catch on the river in an uncontested pot.
(6) If I am dealt 3-card straight/flush, I will normally stay in for one more card with a call or small raise from someone. Any miss on 4rth street, I would give it up. The super system book I read said this isnt probably good unelss the cards were big. If I caught the 4-card straight/flush on 5th street, I would play it out if 3+ folks in.
(7) I would generally play any dealt pair with a call, even a call to a raise. (depending). Pass/check 4rth or 5th street if I didnt improve
(8) I would generally fold if I saw opps had 4-card something showing on 6th street.
(9) If I have med 2-pair on 6th street, checking, fold, or call is most likely depending on the play. I probably wouldnt bet unless I bet 5th street and didnt see opps improve. I probably wouldnt lead out bets or call a raise.
(10) Trips+ are monster hands and should encourage big multi-way pots.
(11) If dealt 3-paint cards, I would generally call (myabe not to a raise), hoping to pair up and play to fifth street
(12) Sometimes I get 6out hands on 5th and 6th street. Depending on the play I might call the the river, hoping for a catch. e.g. Pair with gutshot draw.

This is probably a bit tight/conservative vs what I read, but it has done me well on the .50c tables. Most of the time, would leave the session profitable ($10-$30 per table).

ttanaka

08-31-2004, 08:59 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Krapp,

This is really what I wanted to know - if someone is consistently winning at this game, at these stakes. The fact that you are is a good sign. Where do you play?

Fnord

08-31-2004, 09:16 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

I play at PokerStars with mixed results. Party has too high of an Ante to wait for edges on 3rd/4rth.

When the game is wild, basically you're looking for 4 to a flush and trips by 4rth/5th to beat them over the head with. A big pair (Queens or better) works too, but you're going to need that second pair to stand a chance at showdown and fold to any aggression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Krapp

08-31-2004, 09:45 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 313

I played exclusively Paradise. There arent any forced antes from anyone so you have the luxury to play a bit tighter. I tried moving up to the $1 games but I remember the forced antes and generally everyone was looser/agressive where I was breaking even. Now Im hooked at holdem so I havent looked back at 7-stud since then. I remember by biggest leaks were:

(1) Playing to many start hands (Now its at ~40%)
(2) Chasing draws HtoH.
(3) Calling pairs after 5th street. Although it might be good if you have overcards which are better than opps 2-pair.
(4) Not raising (re-raising if its the highest board pair) my high pair start hands. Id bet these to 5th street and check to the river if i didnt improve. Lots of times the pair would be good on the river (opps have missed draws or calling lower pairs). Now if they bet back on 6th street, I might have to give it up. If I caught 2-pair, I would bet 6th and maybe 7th.

Some other notes:
(1) Trips I would raise 5th street.
(2) $7 is a decent pot, <$10 is a good pot, $11+ is a great pot
(3) 2pair on 4rth, I would re-raise and bet on 5th street. If its a med 2-pair might bet 6th or call. If its high 2-pair, bet to the river.
(4) Bet on any board pair, JJ+ on 4th street, bet on 5th street, call/fold if I didnt catch.
(5) Reraise any high pair(JJ+) on 4th if I had high pair (ie. bettor doesnt have Q-A showing, sometimes I would raise anyways), bet on 5th, call/fold 6th if i didnt catch.
(6) Depending on the opp, I would call/bet to 6th street, med-pair. Now if the board is representing higher 2-pair than mine (if they bet when their Ace dropped on 5th, 6th street), I would fold.
(7) If board pairs up 5-6th street (especially high pairs, JJ, QQ, KK, AA) and my 2pair was lower, I would throw it away.

Fnord

09-01-2004, 02:15 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Krapp

(1) Playing to many start hands (Now its at ~40%)

I try to play fewer hands than that in an ante game!

No ante is a silly format, so fish unfriendly....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

|~|ypermegachi

11-17-2004, 06:07 AM

#11 (permalink)

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i've been playing some stud lately, and to my surprise i'm winning quite more often than in holdem...there are tons and tons of fish playing stud. probably because they all watched rounders and were wondering what game mike was making so much money in.

anywho, might as well contribute my 2 cents. starting hands are always important, and i believe just like holdem you should be playing around 15-20% of the hands you get dealt. i look for 3 criteria when i choose to play cards.

1) high card strength
2) suitedness
3) connectedness

high card strength is most important, and if all your cards are greater than 10 you have a pretty good starting hand. in general, your starting hand should combine 2 of the 3 properties, and if you're in a very loose game just 1.

like humphrind said, your hand values changes every street. but with good starting hands you are more likely to hit better hands.

i think the #1 reason stud is so profitable (probably more than holdem and maybe even omaha) is because the bad players will pay you off a lot. you don't know what a calling station really is until you've played stud. loose passives and the greatest opponents in a stud game. do not fall into the trap of calling bets every street. pot odds are still very important.

it's not too expensive to make some loose calls on 3rd and 4th street. but if it's multiway and it's 5th and you don't anything better than a pair, you should fold. bets double at this point, so you must make wise decisions whether to continue or not. often you'll not get good enough pot odds to chase gutshots. backdoor draws should be folded. the only thing you should call is a high flush draw or open ended straight draw. if it was heads up, a single pair might hold up, but usually not. the hand that most often wins in stud is a 2 pair. if you don't have at least 2 pair or good chance in drawing to a better hand on 5th, fold and save your money.

another thing to mention is if you're drawing live. if you start with 3 spades, say A 8 2. pretty crappy hand, but you got the flush draw so it's worth calling the bring in and see if you improve. now, if 3 other spades are showing on other people's porch. you should now fold, even for the bring in. with those 3 spades showing you now know that there are only 7 spades left for you to catch. that greatly reduces your chances of hitting. you won't get lucky enough to make it a profitable call. perhaps maybe if you had late position, and you know you won't be raised you could call the bring in. but if on 4th street any spades goes to the other people, and you don't get one, throw it away.

and another thing that bothers me that a lot of people do. if you have a pair showing, DON'T CHECK!!! why would you check? what you are doing is giving your opponent infinite odds to draw out and beat you. do not try to 'keep customers.' in fact, it's quite stupid not to bet because more than half the time they will call anyway. just the other day, some idiot called a river bet...and their hand couldn't even beat the betters porch.

ok i'm tired, me zzzzz....any comments?

12-28-2004, 10:51 PM

#12 (permalink)

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I like the Super System I guide to 7 stud, by Chip Reese.

It teaches some good strategies, but because the strategies are quite advanced they might just not work on some of the lower limit tables.

But read! It helped me a great deal.

Jason Moffatt

02-12-2005, 09:02 AM

#13 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Mt. Hood Oregon

Posts: 56

Yes that Chip Reese chapter was great.

I have been beating 7 stud ever since I started playing. I won my first SNG I ever played, and have been consistently beating the game. I have a little system that I use. If interested send me a private message and I will be glad to share a little secret with you. I am not going to discuss it in the open.

Another poster said it correctly, "Lots of Fish", and combined with my tactics I guarantee you will look at stud much differently.

LeFou

02-12-2005, 12:06 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quadruple your proftits Tyson! Play HiLo.

It is laugh-out-loud hilarious what people will call with. BTW read sklansky's HiLo bit in Super/System for HiLo starting hands.

Greedo017

04-08-2005, 09:53 PM

#15 (permalink)

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i've only played a few hundred hands of PL 7 card stud, but i find the competition really weak.

I need to play more to really contribue, but i play on prima. bring in .25, no ante. really really easy and cheap to just fold until you get a hand you like. I usually play cards that are all close and all suited, like 678s, all high with hopefully two suited, and especially pocket pairs. nobody raises for so long, its so easy to draw into three of a kind or a full house. easy i tell you. and then on the river they'll pay you off anyway. go prima.

i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch

ChezJ

05-03-2005, 07:53 PM

#16 (permalink)

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ChezJ is an unknown quantity at this point

as long as you're talking about rounders, follow mikey's advice:

'play only premium hands: jacks split, nines wired, and high flushes. that's it.'

may not be an exact quote but it's pretty close. and that is pretty much all i play. i fold low pairs like 5's unless i have a great kicker and pot odds.

at the casinos in AC (and some vegas casinos too), there is no ante so you can just sit there almost for free and wait to be dealt the monsters.

when it comes to betting, bet only for value.

ChezJ

bentren

08-09-2005, 09:04 AM

#17 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 23

I have been playing for a VERY short time on PP and as Greed says, I have also found the competition very weak. One thing I noticed is a fairly high turnover rate on the tables at least in relation to NL hold 'em.

I have made money so far and I like the game alot right now.

We'll see how things go...

mouteut

10-01-2005, 05:48 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Posts: 152

I don't know if its the obvious but i usually count cards.
Say i start with 3 spade, if everyone else's open cards are spade, i may fold.

Say i start with JJ and i see 2 open jacks, i may fold. I also count cards to calculate odds of my oppenements.

I pretty much beat 25/50 on stars constently that way(im very patient on the 3 starting hands maybe ~20% ).

KoRnholio

11-06-2005, 12:32 AM

#19 (permalink)

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KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

I just got into playing a lot of stud H/L and am doing pretty well. I play on stars and Fulltilt (very soft games when they are running).

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

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