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Excel

02-03-2005, 07:36 AM Post subject: 6 Player Max Hands

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 24

Hi,

Great article on this forum regarding 6 player max.

I have some questions about pre flop hands to play and from what position,

UTG
Raise every hand, but do I play these:
QJ, QT, JT, J9s, K9s, A9s, A8s, A7s, Q9s,

UTG + 1 what extra hands can be played here or still as tight as UTG?

OC and Button
J9, Q9, K9, worth playing these? With limpers or as first in with raise? Or not at all?
Same for Ax, and how soon would you start playing A9?

General questions,

OC or Button, no callers, do I play as first in Axs, Kxs, 55-44, . In the article it says only play if limpers in front.

Thanks in advance for any discssuion on this subject

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|~|ypermegachi

02-03-2005, 04:56 PM Post subject: Re: 6 Player Max Hands

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

Quote:

UTG
Raise every hand, but do I play these:
QJ, QT, JT, J9s, K9s, A9s, A8s, A7s, Q9s,

fold them all. QJs, QTs, JTs can be raised. JTs can be limped, hoping for someone to raise after you, so you can call after many limpers after you (JTs is one of the best multiway hands)

Quote:

UTG + 1 what extra hands can be played here or still as tight as UTG?

your position still sucks...i guess you can add K9s.

Quote:

OC and Button
J9, Q9, K9, worth playing these? With limpers or as first in with raise? Or not at all?
Same for Ax, and how soon would you start playing A9?

higher kicker cards with the ace should be played for a raise to steal blinds. J/Q/K-9, i muck these. they aren't that strong.

Quote:

CO or Button, no callers, do I play as first in Axs, Kxs, 55-44, . In the article it says only play if limpers in front.

these are all speculative hands. they need to get lucky to win. you can go in for a raise if you think there's a good chance the blinds will fold. but you can't be very happy if they call, cuz you're even money when they do.

Excel

02-03-2005, 06:50 PM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 24

Hi,

Thanks for the info, can you hlp me with the following:

If Im raising every hand in Position UTG are all of these hands ok?
AT,QTs,J9s,KJ,KT,A9s even A8s, A7s? If not, then any of them ok in UTG + 1

In your article you say you would play KT from UTG, open raising from all positions, so why would
you recoomend folding QJ, QT, JT, ? In a ring game these are better hands than KT.

Raising pairs down to 77 and up from UTG, is that ok?

Is KQ off suit a power house hand that can be reraised and capped?

Axs and Kxs in CO & button, call if 1 caller or do I need 2, raise 1st in or fold?

Pocket pairs 66-22 in CO & button, call if 1 caller or do I need 2, raise 1st in or fold?

button no callers, do I really fold T9s, 87s, 66, 44, 22 ?

Can I play QJ, JT, J9s, Q9s, Q8s, QT, A9, A8s (any 0ther Axs) from CO or button, and do I always raise first in and call with callers?

Thanks

|~|ypermegachi

02-03-2005, 10:41 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

in a ring game QJ,QT,JT are slightly better than KT because you make more straights. shorthanded, the high card strength of the king is worth a lot more. against, KT is my personal cut off. K9 i muck. some more aggressive players raise that. it's different for every player and every situation.

raising 77 and up UTG is fine.

who's 3 betting you when you have KQ? i wouldn't call KQ a powerhouse, but it's definitely worth a 3bet isolation.

for Axs/Ksx, if i don't like the kicker i'll fold them. you are not counting on flushes to make your money unlike loose ring games.

generally i muck most of the lower pairs if there aren't enough people in the pot to give me good implied odds.

on the button with those marginal hands....raise if you think you have an edge against the blinds.

tend to call with hands that play well in multiway pots, and tend to raise with hands that play well heads up.

one of the reasons i didn't include a preflop chart, is because there is never a situation where the chart will be completely right.

charts are guidelines, and should be used as such. you should raise or fold according to table dynamics, and only lots of experience and lots of hands until you know if raising UTG with A9s is profitable or not for you (and you only).

instead of blindly following guidelines, you should think to yourself with every hand you get:
- in general how strong is this hand?
- how many people are in the pot already?
- are they strong players?
- do i want to isolate them with a raise?
- is my hand good heads up or multiway?
- what's my relative position?

jmontis

02-04-2005, 04:43 AM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Dec 2004

Posts: 1,296

good advice hyper, i play $1-2 6 max alot, and most of the time its 3 way or 4 way.

One key peice of advice is don't let people do psychological moves on you when you first sit down. I learned this from my very successful $50/100 playing friend.

also, you HAVE to be aggressive in a 3-4 way game. Sitting around waiting for AK/AA/KK is going to cost you more money than itll earn.

Excel

02-04-2005, 10:56 AM

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 24

thanks again for the advice,

My 6 player game was going ok, I was monitoring my own results, sometimes trying more loose, sometimes more tight, (ive only been doing 6 player tables since November)

Then I had a brainwave, I started to watch with poker tracker the $15/$30 tables on a site, thinking surely these guys know how to play, especially the ones who are playing 3 tables at once,,,,

Surely only a winning player can play 3 tables at once? Otherwise they loose they bankroll 3 times as fast.

Since then my game has gone right down hill, the vast majority all play suited connectors from early, and does it make sense to raise so they are building the pot to give them flush and staright draw odds,

Some reraise hands like 65s on the button, surely thats crazy long term? Also they happy to call raises with every suited connector

Others 1st in late raise pretty much any hand you would play in SB when its unraised,

I didnt try to play that loose and aggressive, but i did go for the suited connectors, and was great when i did take down a couple of big pots, to the shock of my opponents who put me on higher cards, and when the cards came good, which they always seem to for me when I try something new it was great, although it didnt last.

Some of the other players like raising any ace hand from any position,

The players im talking about all play 3 tables at a time, does the fact they play some weak cards possible help there big hands as there opponents will maybe put them on a weaker hand when they do in fact have the goods?

How they play makes no logically sense to me anyway, so Im now starting from scratch again

Anyway, hyper, your article is the best Ive seen and makes sense,
What stakes do you play at and whats your BB/100 and whats a good BB/100 for me to aim for or be satisfied with?

Your way of playing is more to the way I played before, but seeing everyone else so loose at even the higher levels I thought maybe i was missing to much by being to tight, so i was also loose, so i still need to cut out some hands as your article stated.

Thanks agian for the info

|~|ypermegachi

02-04-2005, 03:05 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004

Location: emo-kid

Posts: 3,580

i've heard 15/30 is a very swingy game. a pro player had a 510BB downswing in 9 days posted at 2+2. this guy was a proven good player as well, and still he had this massive swing.

playing more tables doesn't necessarily mean a good player. all it does is make all the swings even out faster, up or down.

if you're raising a suited connector, anyone with a clue will fold. any hand they call is probably better than what you have. you're really not building a pot at all. it's usually a losing strategy to build pots shorthanded. the way to build is to just limp in, hoping for a few more early limpers, and then the button or the blinds can raise, tapping everyone for one more bet. this is expensive because essentially you're forfeiting the first bet.

raising in the SB is a special case when everyone else folds to you. if you don't raise you're forfeiting half a bet. BB has position on you for the rest of the hand too.

2BB/100 is a very good long term sustainable win rate.

currently i just moved up to 2/4 @ party.

just a little info on starting hand selection:

let's say you play 40% of all your hands outside of the blinds, which is clearly too loose, but many players play that much anyways. every 100 hands you will automatically spend 20 small bets more than a player playing 20% of their hands. in those 20 hands, can you make enough to counter your cost?

you flop a flush draw about 10% of the time. you will make your flush by the river about 6% of the time (i'm talkin about from preflop, not from flop and on).

so basically of those 20 extra hands, you expect to make a flush for 1.2 of those hands. you need to make 18.8 small bets just to break even. and this is excluding all the bets you'll lose when the flush doesn't come.

Excel

02-05-2005, 09:03 AM Post subject: the button against a raise

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 24

If on the button in a 6 player game, what hands are worth calling with and how many players would you want in the pot to justify the call?

All of these? and what else?

AA-TT,AKs, AK, Aqs, AQ,AJ,KQs,KQ

I know its considered not good in general to call raises, but with 6 player being aggressive, surely folding to much on the button is wasting the best position.

Fnord

02-05-2005, 09:21 AM

#9 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Calling, what's that? I would 3-bet all of those hands and then some on the button vs an aggro/loose raiser.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Excel

02-05-2005, 11:09 AM

#10 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 24

The hands I listed were the obvious ones to rereraise,

What I wanted to know was what other hands could be called or reraised when on the button.

Fnord

02-05-2005, 12:35 PM

#11 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

99, 88, sometimes AT

You can go even lighter if the raiser is really crazy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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