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5cd big pair

  
 
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LeFou
Old 05-25-2007, 04:41 PM     Post subject: 5cd big pair #1 (permalink)  
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I know implied odds usually suck in 5cd, but when I play pot limit
(aggressively) I think I'm offering them and I don't like it. Should I just be folding jacksup here?

Be merciless, I'm still *very much finding my feet

PokerStars Game #10098184121: 5 Card Draw Pot Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2007/05/25 - 12:25:06 (ET)
Table 'Raimonda' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: thierry21 ($23.65 in chips)
Seat 2: EtileNedlog ($28.50 in chips)
Seat 3: NuWere ($53.95 in chips)
Seat 4: tripinsmoke ($17.40 in chips)
Seat 6: KSP30 ($15.50 in chips)
Mrinaldi will be allowed to play after the button
Mrinaldi was removed from the table for failing to post
KSP30: posts small blind $0.25
thierry21: posts big blind $0.50
*** DEALING HANDS ***
Dealt to NuWere [Jd Jc 5c 5s Td]
Mrinaldi joins the table at seat #5
EtileNedlog: raises $1 to $1.50
NuWere: raises $2.50 to $4
tripinsmoke: folds
KSP30: folds
thierry21: folds
EtileNedlog: calls $2.50
EtileNedlog: discards 3 cards
NuWere: discards 1 card [Td]
Dealt to NuWere [Jd Jc 5c 5s] [4c]
EtileNedlog: bets $5
NuWere: calls $5
*** SHOW DOWN ***
EtileNedlog: shows [As Ad Ks 5h Kd] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
NuWere: mucks hand
EtileNedlog collected $17.85 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $18.75 | Rake $0.90
Seat 1: thierry21 (big blind) folded before the Draw
Seat 2: EtileNedlog showed [As Ad Ks 5h Kd] and won ($17.85) with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 3: NuWere mucked [Jd Jc 5c 5s 4c]
Seat 4: tripinsmoke (button) folded before the Draw (didn't bet)
Seat 6: KSP30 (small blind) folded before the Draw
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zenbitz
Old 05-25-2007, 05:50 PM #2 (permalink)  
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His implied odds don't seem that big, he only got an extra $5 out of you. pot+implied odds = 2.50 : 11.75, I guess that's 5:1. Of course, you have 4 uber outs.
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Fnord
Old 05-25-2007, 06:51 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I can see folding here, but I think you need to call here sometimes.

What's his range on the 3 draw after a PFR? Do Jacks up ever beat an improved hand from him? How often does he donk into aggressors?

Your range should be something like:
2 Pair
Trips
4oak
4 to a flush (with an Ace or straight draw)

His line costs him a bluff when you're on the come, costs him money vs trips or a better hand (how much depends on if he calls a re-raise), makes him money against goodish 2 pair hands. You should probably fold your weaker 2 pair hands (Tens up and worse or so.) Once a blue moon re-raise the ass-end of your range on a bluff.

I'm not worried about his line against our range.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Fnord
Old 05-25-2007, 08:27 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Actually, speaking of reverse implied odds, what's the smallest 2 pair hand you should be re-raising against a reasonably opening range from a non-steal position.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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bigspenda73
Old 05-25-2007, 08:31 PM #5 (permalink)  
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bigspenda73 will become famous soon enoughbigspenda73 will become famous soon enough
 We cant get away with raising this river?
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Fnord
Old 05-25-2007, 08:43 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
We cant get away with raising this river?
Why do you think we both have the best hand and get called by worse hands often enough to raise here?

His range on donking pot after drawing 3 is like:
1 Pair unimproved trying to get a fold
2 Pair with a broadway (really depends on how tight he opens.)
Trips

If we re-raise, 1 pair folds, 2 pair might look us up, trips almost always look us up unless it's small (unlikely given his 3 draw) and we pot it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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LeFou
Old 05-25-2007, 10:33 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Actually, speaking of reverse implied odds, what's the smallest 2 pair hand you should be re-raising against a reasonably opening range from a non-steal position.
Caro (in SS) gives the median hands thus:
at least Jacks -> median is AA
at least Aces -> median is Tens up

So I'm reraising anything higher than the median.
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Fnord
Old 05-25-2007, 11:08 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeFou
Caro (in SS) gives the median hands thus:
at least Jacks -> median is AA
at least Aces -> median is Tens up

So I'm reraising anything higher than the median.
I'll add that Caro isn't accounting for a big bet format. With a bigger jump in effective stakes post-draw, AA is going to do better heads-up than Tens Up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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bigspenda73
Old 05-25-2007, 11:13 PM #9 (permalink)  
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bigspenda73 will become famous soon enoughbigspenda73 will become famous soon enough
 I don't mean Im raising the river for value.
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Fnord
Old 05-25-2007, 11:14 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
I don't mean Im raising the river for value.
Need more information on the other guy before I'm considering much more than a call.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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