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buddha
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03-22-2006, 06:11 AM
Post subject: 5 card draw
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 85
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i was just wondering when play 5 card draw, with a pair and an ace pre-draw should i keep the ace and draw two or three?
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mb2447
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 122
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i want to say two. but i'd have to bust out the ol' super system and read mike caro's section to answer with confidence.
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AWOL.
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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It really depends. Most of the time draw 3. The only time you would draw 2 is when you think another player that you have position on might have a high 2 pair, so you keep your Ace to try and out draw. If not, ditch the A so you have one more chances to draw to an improved hand.
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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buddha
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 85
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Ok, i've got one more for ya, say i have trips pre-draw heads up pot, would it be better to disquise my hand by drawing 1 or should i go for 2?
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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HU I draw one a lot, with more people in the pot I generally dont worry about it. If your playing lower stakes with a bunch of donkeys then dont worry much about it as they probably dont even see or understand the difference.
PS. Super Systems draw portion is not that compatible with the online version of the game. Online the game has blinds instead of antes so if fundamentally changes the game.
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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buddha
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 85
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I've only been playin for a few days but what should my standard be on raising hands pre-draw, right now i've been doing it with a pair of jacks or better but it seems like i get either outdrew everytime or someone will justlimp with two pair, or they'll call my two pair and hit two bigger pair, and i know the majority of these players are fish but a re their drawouts just lucky or is the problem my low pre-draw standards ?
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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UTG KK or better
CO JJ or better
BT TT or better, 88 if the blinds are tight.
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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buddha
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 85
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I hate to sound stupid but what does CO and BT TT mean?
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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Its a 5 handed game so the positions are
UTG = Under the Gun
CO = Cutoff ( always one seat to the right of the button)
BT = Button
SB = Small Blind
BB = Big Blind
TT means 10 10
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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A couple things to think about when deciding how many to keep with a pair or trips.
When drawing with a pair, drawing 3, you will make 2pair about 16% of the time and trips about 11.4% of the time and a boat about 1% of the time. If you draw 2, you will make 2pair slightly more often, a boat about the same, but you will only make trips a little less than 8% now. The chances of pairing your kicker are around 12% however. It's a trade off between a lower chance of trips but a higher chance of a better 2pair. I'm not going to run through all the math here. When judging the strength of a 2pair, you should know that jacks up is a little above average and Tens up is a little below average as far as 2pairs go. If your pair is higher, the advantage of keeping the A kicker is smaller, as you will already beat more 2pairs. The more people in the hand, the better hand you will need on average to win as well, so the value of a higher 2pair goes up. So, basically, tend to keep the A when you have a smaller pair and when there are more people in the pot. A classic example of when you should keep the A kicker is with a very small pair in the BB.
Drawing 1 or 2 to trips is less about the odds of improving your hand and more about the advantages of deception. As far as the odds go, drawing 2, you will improve to quads about 4.3%, and improve to the boat about 6.1%. Keeping 1 drops the quads to about 2.2% but actually increases the chances of the boat to 6.4%. So you are giving up a little under 2% chance of improving. But you already have a strong hand that will usually win, and more often than not, you will not need that extra chance. To estimate how much you are giving up, lets say you will lose with trips about 15% of the time and lose a 10 BB pot. You are giving up this pot 2%*15%= .3% of the time by drawing 1 rather than 2. Multiplying by the pot size, you sacrifice 0.03BB in value. Even if my estimates of pot size and winning chances are way off, you aren't losing even a tenth of a big bet of value. So, if your deception play of drawing 1 gains an extra bet only 1 in 10 times, you are ahead. Since deception plays require that your opponents are observant, you must not make it every time, as they will notice (being observant). However, drawing 1 more often than not is probably the winning play.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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A little addendum.
Suppose you are on the Button and see trips. 2 limpers, you raise, blinds and limpers call. All 4 of your opponents draw 1. You definitely want to draw 2 because the extra chances of improving are much more valuable here because it is likely you will have to beat a straight, flush, or full house.
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buddha
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 85
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ok, in that situation im goin want to check it down if it comes to me, correct?
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brian1175
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Crofton MD
Posts: 143
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buddha, I would say yes. ... IMO if it's a cold call on the raise I would probably put them on 2 pair. You might be better taking 1 and betting out hoping you get called on the 2 pair. If the limper that you put on a draw bets out or reraises I would maybe call the bet out and fold to a reraise....Also If it's a cold call, they could be disguising trips too, but usually lower if they didnt reraise, you could maybe get a call there also.
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brian1175
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Crofton MD
Posts: 143
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I would like to talk about the taking 2 cards theory...I think it sucks. If I see someone taking 2 without a raise, that gives me there hand, and if he bets outs I put him automatically on a high 2 pair and reraise with any trips. If you take 3 and bet out I will only call with mediocre trips and maybe reraise with high trips. My point is ...try to give them the least amount of info....
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by brian1175
I would like to talk about the taking 2 cards theory...I think it sucks. If I see someone taking 2 with a raise, that gives me there hand, and if he bets outs I put him automatically on a high 2 pair and reraise with any trips. If you take 3 and bet out I will only call with mediocre trips and maybe reraise with high trips. My point is ...try to give them the least amount of info....
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You first off forget that most people suck playing 5draw online. If I am up against a bunch of players taking one, I am definately taking 2 without questions. This is also a limit game, since its not like deception will win us a huge amount of money.
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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brian1175
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Crofton MD
Posts: 143
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I think if a bunch of people are taking 1 then that might be the only time i might consider....
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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I agree.
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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brian1175
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Crofton MD
Posts: 143
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Since I just found this thread, I also wanna clear something up about the odds that Xanadu posted. When I first read the post I thought he was saying it was easier to get a full house by drawing 1 with trips. The percentage of the times you will draw a full house goes up because you lose in drawing to quads. So the difference in the percentage is the percentage that you caught quads. Making this as simple as possible...you have the same chance in quads/fullhouse taking 2 as you do in a fullhouse taking 1.
When you are dealt trips you have to decide if taking a slight decrease in quads is worth the deception. My general rule is if I think my trips is bigger than his highest pair OR he will pay me with 2 pair, I will take 1 when dealt trips.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by brian1175
Since I just found this thread, I also wanna clear something up about the odds that Xanadu posted. When I first read the post I thought he was saying it was easier to get a full house by drawing 1 with trips. The percentage of the times you will draw a full house goes up because you lose in drawing to quads. So the difference in the percentage is the percentage that you caught quads. Making this as simple as possible...you have the same chance in quads/fullhouse taking 2 as you do in a fullhouse taking 1.
When you are dealt trips you have to decide if taking a slight decrease in quads is worth the deception. My general rule is if I think my trips is bigger than his highest pair OR he will pay me with 2 pair, I will take 1 when dealt trips.
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Not really. Your full house percentage goes up only slightly by drawing 1, from 6.1 to 6.4. Your quads drop almost in half, from 4.3 to about 2.2. You are giving up about 20% of your chances of improving, but since your chances were only about 10.5% to start with, and you already have a strong hand to begin with it isn't really giving up much. The full house doesnt go up because the quads were taken out. They are statistically disjoint hands. Quads go down by almost half because you have 1 less card to draw. Full house goes up slightly because the 4th card you keep has 3 outs to be paired where if you had thrown that card away and it was the first of the two cards you drew, it would only have 2 outs to be paired on the second card.
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brian1175
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Crofton MD
Posts: 143
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very good....
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