Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

REGISTER
Subscribe to FTR web feed
Already Registered?      Username:    Password:   Remember      Forgot Password

Poker Forum

  > 

All Other (Limit) Poker

  > 

4rth Floor or stay at the 3rd Floor?

  
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Fnord
Old 08-29-2007, 08:56 AM     Post subject: 4rth Floor or stay at the 3rd Floor? #1 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
8/16 half kill. Table is playing sorta tight, only 3-5 to most flops, but a couple really soft spots playing loose fit or fold making it a great game for me.

Really loose, goofy chick limps. 30%ish VP$IP passive old man who plays fit or fold on the flop and likes to slow-play follows in the CO, Button folds, SB completes and I tap the table with

Flop:


SB checks, I check because people are actually folding on the flop in unraised pots (but stealing a lot) tonight, Chick and Geyzer check.

Turn:

SB checks, I check again, chick bets, geyzer calls, SB folds, I raise, chick calls, geyzer 3 bets....

Am I getting too soft by putting him on 87/88 here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
daven
Old 08-29-2007, 10:52 AM #2 (permalink)  
Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,805
daven will become famous soon enough
 Unlucky that nobody raised the flop behind you.
I could never fold here. Guess you are debating call vs cap? Would old geezer slow play trips or overpair here from the button with so many players in? seems a little risky/stupid to me. Sure, 78&88 have you beat - but 46, 69, 7x and 8x (xnot5) do not.
I call here, but not because I am scared of geezer. I call to keep chick in - I doubt she will have anything dangerous to you and she may catch a river flush or straight to get unduly excited about and you end up with a fun river party.
Reply With Quote
DrivingDog
Old 08-29-2007, 11:40 AM #3 (permalink)  
DrivingDog's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
DrivingDog
Well not sure. Unless Geyzer REALLY likes to slowplay i can't see him just calling the first bet on the turn with any kind of vulnerable hand. I could see him having 88, 87, 55 here, with 88 being most likely based on the 75 in your hand. Straight seems unlikely. 30% VPIP'ers don't normally limp in on 96 or 64. Other 7x doesn't seem likely either for 30% VP'er, slim chance of Ac7c but he'd probably raise that when Chick bets with straight draw out there. Straight flush draw is a very remote possibility but not enough to influence my decision either way.

My best guess is we're usually behind here to 88 or 87 and occasionally ahead of 55. So i'm probably not putting in any more chips than i have to unless another 7 comes on the river.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
Reply With Quote
DrivingDog
Old 08-29-2007, 12:18 PM #4 (permalink)  
DrivingDog's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
DrivingDog
If you agree that you're most likely up against 88, 87, 55, or Ac7c then you have 42% equity. so the only time putting in more bets than you have to makes sense is if you expect Chick to stay in the pot with no hope at all of winning.

If she's really that bad, you might just call the 3bet on the turn and bet out the river, hoping for a call from Chick. If she does and Geyzer raises then I'd just call and hope Chick overcalls. If a flush card comes and Chick raises your initial bet, then let the chips fly!
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
Reply With Quote
elipsesjeff
Old 08-29-2007, 07:28 PM #5 (permalink)  
elipsesjeff's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point
 I'm at least putting a 3rd bet in here. If he caps me I'd be worried then check/call the river. I'm putting in 5 bets between the turn and river regardless.


Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
 
Reply With Quote
KoRnholio
Old 08-29-2007, 07:46 PM #6 (permalink)  
KoRnholio's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
KoRnholio will become famous soon enough
 I don't see why the old guy couldn't have a hand like 64 or K7s here. That opens up his range quite a bit, so I'm never folding here. But like others said, I think calling to keep the chick in is good.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
Reply With Quote
euphoricism
Old 08-29-2007, 07:47 PM #7 (permalink)  
euphoricism's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
euphoricism
Send a message via AIM to euphoricism
Agree. 3 bet
<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
 
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-29-2007, 08:31 PM #8 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Old Man's turn line is call/3-bet. The third bet is in. Am I capping it? Call and check/raise most river cards? No way I fold here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
TylerK
Old 08-29-2007, 08:44 PM #9 (permalink)  
TylerK's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
TylerK
Send a message via AIM to TylerK
88 probably bets the flop. He has a 7 and a bus pass most of the time, I'm capping here and putting in a ton of bets on the river.
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
Reply With Quote
arborman
Old 08-29-2007, 08:55 PM #10 (permalink)  
Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 300
arborman
No idea what's the best play here, but I actually understand the concepts now, as opposed to 3 months ago. Yay!
Reply With Quote
DrivingDog
Old 08-29-2007, 10:42 PM #11 (permalink)  
DrivingDog's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
DrivingDog
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
88 probably bets the flop. He has a ... bus pass
Both valid observations and ones i overlooked. However, unless he's dangerously low on chips, the bus pass probably doesn't come into the pot on this hand.

So you may well be winning here, but i'd still be just calling his 3bet and trying my best to get as many bets as i possibly can out of Chick on the turn and river. Better to risk her chips than yours.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
Reply With Quote
euphoricism
Old 08-29-2007, 11:08 PM #12 (permalink)  
euphoricism's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
euphoricism
Send a message via AIM to euphoricism
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Old Man's turn line is call/3-bet. The third bet is in. Am I capping it? Call and check/raise most river cards? No way I fold here.
Aaah. I see. Cap away.
<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
 
Reply With Quote
elipsesjeff
Old 08-30-2007, 12:08 AM #13 (permalink)  
elipsesjeff's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point
 I'd put the 4th bet in and lead the river. I'm not putting a 3rd bet in on the river tho.


Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
 
Reply With Quote
dsaxton
Old 08-30-2007, 12:38 AM #14 (permalink)  
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
dsaxton
Just bet / 3-bet the turn. Cap the turn as played. Just because they're passive doesn't mean they have full houses when they show strength on a paired board.
Reply With Quote
TylerK
Old 08-30-2007, 12:41 AM #15 (permalink)  
TylerK's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
TylerK
Send a message via AIM to TylerK
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
Just bet / 3-bet the turn. Cap the turn as played. Just because they're passive doesn't mean they have full houses when they show strength on a paired board.
I missed the turn check, I probably bet the turn as well.
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
Reply With Quote
DrivingDog
Old 08-30-2007, 10:39 AM #16 (permalink)  
DrivingDog's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
DrivingDog
I think it's useful to consider this situation in terms of risk/reward ratios. If you do so, the first priority is to maximize the amount of dead money in the pot. That means getting as many bets as possible out of Chick since there's no reason to think she is any threat to our FH.

Assume we're willing to put in 2 more bets on the river no matter what happens (obviously if a 7 comes we're putting in more and if an 8 comes we might put in less but let's ignore the very slim chance of one of those things happening for now), and assume that Geyzer will do the same. Finally, assume that if Chick goes to the river she will typically call one more bet but fold to a bet and a raise.

Four outcomes are possible:

If you call the turn 3 bet:

1) Chick may call 1 bet to stay in the pot, and you will end up putting in 3 more bets on the turn and river to win 8, a risk/reward ratio of 1 : 2.67.

2) Chick may fold to a 3bet on the turn, in which case you end up putting in 3 bets to win 6, a risk/reward ratio of 1 : 2.


If you cap the turn:

1) Chick may call 2 bets cold on the turn. In this case you'll be risking 4 bets to win 11, a risk/reward ratio of 1 : 2.75.

2) Chick may fold to 2 bets cold on the turn, and you will risk 4 bets to win 8, a risk/reward of 1 : 2.

Regardless of what your equity vs. Geyzer is, you're always better off whenever Chick puts more bets in the pot. Since that's more likely to happen if you just call the turn, giving her a chance to see the river for one more bet, and the risk/reward ratio barely improves when you cap the turn and she stays in anyways (1: 2.75 vs. 1: 2.67), then just calling the turn 3 bet to try to keep Chick in the pot would seem to be the best move.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
Reply With Quote
elipsesjeff
Old 08-30-2007, 03:13 PM #17 (permalink)  
elipsesjeff's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Four outcomes are possible:

If you call the turn 3 bet:

1) Chick may call 1 bet to stay in the pot, and you will end up putting in 3 more bets on the turn and river to win 8, a risk/reward ratio of 1 : 2.67.

2) Chick may fold to a 3bet on the turn, in which case you end up putting in 3 bets to win 6, a risk/reward ratio of 1 : 2.


If you cap the turn:

1) Chick may call 2 bets cold on the turn. In this case you'll be risking 4 bets to win 11, a risk/reward ratio of 1 : 2.75.

2) Chick may fold to 2 bets cold on the turn, and you will risk 4 bets to win 8, a risk/reward of 1 : 2.

Regardless of what your equity vs. Geyzer is, you're always better off whenever Chick puts more bets in the pot. Since that's more likely to happen if you just call the turn, giving her a chance to see the river for one more bet, and the risk/reward ratio barely improves when you cap the turn and she stays in anyways (1: 2.75 vs. 1: 2.67), then just calling the turn 3 bet to try to keep Chick in the pot would seem to be the best move.
You can't count the bets you already have in the pot, and you also can't assume that she's putting in more than 1 bet on the river.

You're essentially putting 1 BB more in the pot by raising to win an additional 2 BB (only those that would call the 4bet), as it looks like Chick is going to call the 3bet. If you don't raise you are limiting the amount you can gain here with your monster hand to only 1 BB, when Chick does call. Going for the overcall works best on the river with a non-monster, they're going to call anyway because its what they do.

Also, your math is skewed in your other calculations but I would say its always better to cap the turn give yourself an opportunity to win the most.


Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
 
Reply With Quote
dsaxton
Old 08-30-2007, 03:33 PM #18 (permalink)  
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
dsaxton
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
the first priority is to maximize the amount of dead money in the pot.
No. He flopped a full house in a small pot; the goal is to get as much money in the pot as possible while still remaining a favorite to win it. Usually this means jamming every street, but against extremely passive players it might be correct to slow down at some point, but the turn is almost never the time to do it.
Reply With Quote
DrivingDog
Old 08-30-2007, 04:47 PM #19 (permalink)  
DrivingDog's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
DrivingDog
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
the first priority is to maximize the amount of dead money in the pot.
No...the goal is to get as much money in the pot as possible while still remaining a favorite to win it.
Ok well if i understand you correctly, I''m trying to get more of Chick's money in the pot and you're trying to get the biggest overall pot. My argument in the last post was that the former is preferable to the latter from a purely risk/reward point of view and you haven't given me any reason to change my mind. I'm not saying one doesn't exist, i just haven't been shown it yet.

There's been nothing from Chick to evidence a strong hand, so the only possible reason for fourbetting the turn is if we fear that Chick has a 5% possibility of drawing out with an 8x or 99+ hand which a fourbet will cause her to fold. But even then the chance of folding a two-out draw doesn't gain us enough equity to be worth an extra bet on the turn in an 8BB pot.

Currently, i would put Geyzer on A7, Kc7c, 87, or 55, and if an A,K, 8, or 5 didn't come on the river i'd be prepared to cap the river.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-30-2007, 05:01 PM #20 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Results:
I tank and just call, chick folds!

River is a Ten.
Geyzer bets, I call and say "show me your eights." He tables J7s and I scoop.

Yeah, I think I missed a bet here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
DrivingDog
Old 08-30-2007, 05:41 PM #21 (permalink)  
DrivingDog's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
DrivingDog
Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
You can't count the bets you already have in the pot....
Yes sorry i'm new to this math-poker stuff. Also you need to consider the size of the pot.

If we assume you have 50% equity against Geyzer, then EV works out like this (assuming Chick will put in one more bet on the river if she calls the turn and you and Geyzer will put in two each).

call 3 bet:
1) chick calls: EV = +6 BB
2) chick folds: EV = +5 BB

fourbet turn:
1) chick calls: EV = + 7 BB
2) chick folds: EV = + 5.5 BB


If your equity is higher (say 75%) then the same numbers are:

call 3 bet:
1) chick calls: EV = + 10.5 BB
2) chick folds: EV = +9 BB

cap turn:
1) chick calls: EV = + 12.5 BB
2) chick folds: EV = +10.25 BB

and if your equity is 25% then:

call 3bet:
1) chick calls: EV = +1.5 BB
2) chick folds: EV = +1 BB

cap turn:
1) chick calls: EV = + 0.5 BB
2) chick folds: EV = +0.75 BB

In every case you're better off if chick will call your 3bet but fold to a four bet. If she won't call a 3 bet then 4 betting is best when you're ahead and worst when you're behind (duh). Also it doesn't hurt to look at a river card sometimes before putting in lots of bets as it can dramatically change things.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
Reply With Quote
DrivingDog
Old 08-30-2007, 07:35 PM #22 (permalink)  
DrivingDog's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
DrivingDog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Results:
I tank and just call, chick folds!

River is a Ten.
Geyzer bets, I call and say "show me your eights." He tables J7s and I scoop.
In that case you should have 4 bet the turn and river....what were you thinking?

But seriously, if you're gonna post a HH, then it's better to just give the reads and when you get to the critical point say "what now?" If you say "should i put X on 88 here? it kind of gives the answer away. And if you hand't made what looks like a mistake in retrospect you wouldn't be posting it anyway.

I still appreciate your HH's everyone i'd just like to see one where there aren't any obvious hints as to what the 'correct' play should be.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
Reply With Quote
TylerK
Old 08-30-2007, 08:03 PM #23 (permalink)  
TylerK's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
TylerK
Send a message via AIM to TylerK
I don't think it's a hint, he's just saying what he puts him on at that point in the hand. Some other weak/tight nits might agree with that read (sorry Fnord)
TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
 
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-30-2007, 08:04 PM #24 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
LoL @ me not giving reads in my posts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
DrivingDog
Old 08-30-2007, 08:09 PM #25 (permalink)  
DrivingDog's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
DrivingDog
Quote:
Originally Posted by TylerK
I don't think it's a hint, he's just saying what he puts him on at that point in the hand. Some other weak/tight nits might agree with that read (sorry Fnord)
Yeah sorry Fnord nothing against you. I think we all have this tendency and should try to extinguish it.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
Reply With Quote
Fnord
Old 08-30-2007, 08:20 PM #26 (permalink)  
Fnord's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via MSN to Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
But seriously, if you're gonna post a HH, then it's better to just give the reads and when you get to the critical point say "what now?" If you say "should i put X on 88 here?
It's a fair question with a fair answer that I overlooked at the moment. 88 bets this flop almost always. Once we get that far, it's pretty easy to figure we're way way ahead here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
Reply With Quote
dsaxton
Old 08-31-2007, 01:26 AM #27 (permalink)  
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
dsaxton
DrivingDog, it's intuitively obvious that raising a near-nut hand is almost always good in a multiway pot on a big bet street. I don't think a rigorous mathematical analysis is needed to show whether or not this is the case.
Reply With Quote
DrivingDog
Old 08-31-2007, 10:50 AM #28 (permalink)  
DrivingDog's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
DrivingDog
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
DrivingDog, it's intuitively obvious that raising a near-nut hand is almost always good in a multiway pot on a big bet street. I don't think a rigorous mathematical analysis is needed to show whether or not this is the case.
Your style may very well work best for you. If your intuition is correct >50% of the time, then listening to it is +EV. Unfortunately, mine is always telling me to do stupid things like fold the best hand, smoke cigars, and fondle strange women's breasts, which is why I need to rely on my analytical side.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
Reply With Quote
Reply
Latest Poker News
KoRnholio Old 05-26-2012, 03:08 PM    Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ...

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:04 AM.

Contact Us - Archive - Top

FTR Testimonials

All content
© FlopTurnRiver.com 		Advertising  |   Partners  |   Testimonials  |   T&C  |   Contact Us  |   FTR News & Press  |   Site Map  |   Search FTR

Full Tilt  |   Titan Poker  |   UltimateBet  |   Poker Stars  |   Ladbrokes Bonus  |   Sportsbook  |   Cake Poker  

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum
This is not a gambling website.