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ponyboy
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11-30-2009, 03:57 PM
Post subject: 3 betting for position/isolation
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 379
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Just wondering people's opinions on this. I was playing today at a table where a particular villian was 3 betting a lot, mainly in my opinion because he had position over the initial raiser. He was a definite lagg because he would often call to river and show down with crap, but his ability to control each round meant he took down quite a few pots post flop just by betting or raising.
Is it worth investing the extra bet with cards that are somewhat marginal or opening up your range if you know you have position for the rest of the betting rounds?
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LawDude
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11-30-2009, 05:12 PM
Post subject: Re: 3 betting for position/isolation
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#2 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ponyboy
Just wondering people's opinions on this. I was playing today at a table where a particular villian was 3 betting a lot, mainly in my opinion because he had position over the initial raiser. He was a definite lagg because he would often call to river and show down with crap, but his ability to control each round meant he took down quite a few pots post flop just by betting or raising.
Is it worth investing the extra bet with cards that are somewhat marginal or opening up your range if you know you have position for the rest of the betting rounds?
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The short answer is yes, you should 3-bet for isolation, initiative position, and value when someone's raising range is overbroad.
The longer answer is, in part, as follows:
1. Sometimes, you just aren't able to do this, either because you don't have playable hands (your equity with 32o is so low that you are just spewing chips if you iso-raise with it) or because the other players at the table are calling stations. (I was at a table just yesterday with a loose raiser across the table and two calling stations to my left. I wanted to scream when I 3-bet her with AJ and both of those guys called the 3 bets cold.)
2. You need to be able to distinguish different kinds of LAGs. Some of them give you fold equity post-flop. Others will stay in the hand to the bitter end. And you need two different strategies. Against the ones who give you fold equity, it's fine to 3-bet with even relatively weak holdings, if you can represent a big hand on the flop or turn and get them to bail. Against the ones who call you down, you need to wait until you have something with at least minimal showdown value (an ace, for instance, or a pocket pair) or be willing to dump hands that miss the flop and which may be behind the LAG's range.
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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3betting preflop is one of the best plays against semi-loose aggressive players who play fit or fold postflop. When you pop them and they miss the flop, very often you will take it down on the flop or turn.
One of the weaknesses in my game is playing 3 bet pots without initiative or position. Too often there's just no good way to play the hand from that point on.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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ponyboy
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by KoRnholio
3betting preflop is one of the best plays against semi-loose aggressive players who play fit or fold postflop. When you pop them and they miss the flop, very often you will take it down on the flop or turn.
One of the weaknesses in my game is playing 3 bet pots without initiative or position. Too often there's just no good way to play the hand from that point on.
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So what would you do in a situation where you are constantly getting repopped out of position (as I did today). Wait until you have good position and then return the favour?
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ponyboy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by KoRnholio
3betting preflop is one of the best plays against semi-loose aggressive players who play fit or fold postflop. When you pop them and they miss the flop, very often you will take it down on the flop or turn.
One of the weaknesses in my game is playing 3 bet pots without initiative or position. Too often there's just no good way to play the hand from that point on.
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So what would you do in a situation where you are constantly getting repopped out of position (as I did today). Wait until you have good position and then return the favour? |
You have to put them on a range and be willing to show down light.
If someone's repopping you a lot, that means they are either getting very lucky (not unheard of, but not the usual course of events) or are raising very light. And if they are raising very light, then you have to figure out what has showdown value against such a player. Pocket pairs, ace-high, even king-high against some players. And then you have to show it down unless the board and the betting on later streets convinces you they hit something.
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ponyboy
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LawDude
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ponyboy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by KoRnholio
3betting preflop is one of the best plays against semi-loose aggressive players who play fit or fold postflop. When you pop them and they miss the flop, very often you will take it down on the flop or turn.
One of the weaknesses in my game is playing 3 bet pots without initiative or position. Too often there's just no good way to play the hand from that point on.
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So what would you do in a situation where you are constantly getting repopped out of position (as I did today). Wait until you have good position and then return the favour? |
You have to put them on a range and be willing to show down light.
If someone's repopping you a lot, that means they are either getting very lucky (not unheard of, but not the usual course of events) or are raising very light. And if they are raising very light, then you have to figure out what has showdown value against such a player. Pocket pairs, ace-high, even king-high against some players. And then you have to show it down unless the board and the betting on later streets convinces you they hit something. |
Yeah, this is what I have the biggest problem with. I am always afraid of monsters under the bed and just assume that they hit whatever I didn't. I guess it just means I need to put opponents on ranges more often and more effectively.
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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Like Lawdude said, If they are doing it a lot, figure out how light they are doing it, and then play showdown poker.
If they are doing it often, but also using their position well (ie, taking free cards when they should, making good value bets), then it's usually best to get a seat or table change. It is very -EV to have a good TAG or semi LAG on your immediate left.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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