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dtamburin
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04-07-2009, 12:34 AM
Post subject: 25/50 HE Limit hand. Should I of folded or called down?
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 65
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Please critique my thinking. He checked from BB so he could have anything. He calls till the 2nd 6 hits then raises me. I think a set so I fold. His VPIP is 42 over 55 hands and he loves to call down.
Absolute Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) by Hand Converter CG
Preflop: Hero is CO with Th, Ah.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB checks.
Flop: (3.40 SB) 6s, As, Kc (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP2 calls.
Turn: (3.20 BB) 6h (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB raises, MP2 folds, Hero folds.
Final Pot: 6.20 BB
Main Pot: 5.20 BB, won by BB.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to BB.
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LawDude
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04-07-2009, 12:49 AM
Post subject: Re: 25/50 HE Limit hand. Should I of folded or called down?
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#2 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dtamburin
Please critique my thinking. He checked from BB so he could have anything. He calls till the 2nd 6 hits then raises me. I think a set so I fold. His VPIP is 42 over 55 hands and he loves to call down.
Absolute Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) by Hand Converter CG
Preflop: Hero is CO with Th, Ah.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB checks.
Flop: (3.40 SB) 6s, As, Kc (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, MP2 calls.
Turn: (3.20 BB) 6h (3 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB raises, MP2 folds, Hero folds.
Final Pot: 6.20 BB
Main Pot: 5.20 BB, won by BB.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to BB. |
First of all, you are in the cutoff with ATs, a very good hand. Raise it.
Flop is fine.
On the turn, you haven't given us the necessary information. VPIP tells you pre-flop looseness / tightness-- it doesn't say anything about post-flop aggression. If he is normally a station (which you imply by saying he loves to call you down, though that is true of lots of limit players who are not, in fact, stations), then his raise is a very strong move, perhaps indicating that he hit his 6.
But this could also be a bluff or a semi-bluff with a flush draw. Without a read, it's very difficult to know what to do. You also have 2 absolute outs here even if he has the 6. There's an argument for doing what you did-- it's the conservative play, but there's also an argument for calling him down. If you had a more specific read, it might be an easier decision.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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wow. looks like lawdude and i are going to say the same thing....
first thing you should do is RAISE with ATs from there to isolate the limper and start building a pot for the potential of a huge hand. limping here is weak and asking for difficult decisions like you are asking. this could have been avoided by not giving the BB a "free look" at a flop when you have a WAY better holding than a couple of random cards.
you were probably correct to fold the turn to a c/r. but, i cant do it, personally without a stronger read on my villain. i tend to call down with my TP decent kicker in a limped pot. but, experience tells me in a straightforward game, such as 25c/50c full ring, a turn raise usually beats TP whatever it is. but, i have seen this done with the K, too, as a bluff.....and you do have top and bottom pair as well.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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dtamburin
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04-07-2009, 02:51 PM
Post subject: thanks
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#4 (permalink)
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 65
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Thanks guys for the input. I'm trying to think about my hands more. His aggression factor was about 1.2 or so.
I thought about raising pre-flop, and I would of if I opened, but I'm sometimes unsure what to do if I have limpers in front.
Thanks
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Chopper
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04-07-2009, 03:24 PM
Post subject: Re: thanks
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#5 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dtamburin
I thought about raising pre-flop, and I would of if I opened, but I'm sometimes unsure what to do if I have limpers in front.
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with stronger hands that can make strong TP's in short-handed pots, lean towards raising to isolate the limper. open limping is weak....punish it.
the only factors that will keep me from isolating frequently are: stations that like to call two cold. and, very loose players with position on me.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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LawDude
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04-07-2009, 06:28 PM
Post subject: Re: thanks
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#6 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dtamburin
I thought about raising pre-flop, and I would of if I opened, but I'm sometimes unsure what to do if I have limpers in front.
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with stronger hands that can make strong TP's in short-handed pots, lean towards raising to isolate the limper. open limping is weak....punish it.
the only factors that will keep me from isolating frequently are: stations that like to call two cold. and, very loose players with position on me. |
Given your position, I would still say it's OK to raise ATs pre-flop even if you know everyone will call. Unless a very tight player raises, you are likely a favorite to win the hand. You have a 1 in 3 chance to catch an ace and if you do, you are likely going to get paid off. You also have a 1 in 3 chance of catching a ten which will sometimes pay you off as well, and a 1 in 11 chance of hitting a flush draw. And you will likely have the best hand if nobody hits anything.
Getting chips in the pot when you have the best hand and position is rarely a bad idea.
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MoneyBagz480
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 30
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i dont know about raising preflop. in limit you're very seldom going to push someone out with a single raise. and if someone else had raised before u i dont think it would be wise to three bet with A10 suited. save ur money and see the flop. IMO the hand doesnt begin til after the flop in limit poker.
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MoneyBagz480
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 30
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oh and i would have folded too. ppl do limp with AK and ur beat by any 6 blank suited or connector.
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MoneyBagz480
i dont know about raising preflop. in limit you're very seldom going to push someone out with a single raise. and if someone else had raised before u i dont think it would be wise to three bet with A10 suited. save ur money and see the flop. IMO the hand doesnt begin til after the flop in limit poker.
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In position in a multiway pot in a game where nobody folds pre-flop, a 3-bet with ATs (assuming the first raise isn't from a total nit whose raising range is AA-KK or something) can be an extremely smart play. You are playing your position, your suited cards, and your ace-with-strong-kicker, and it's pretty easy to bail out without it costing you a fortune if someone comes out of the flop ahead of you.
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MoneyBagz480
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 30
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true i can see establishing position. but i think id rather save my bet and see the flop. just how i would play. i just hate it when i try that and that total nit has something like J9 suited and comes out ahead. i play much smaller limits and those nits do to. lol.
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MoneyBagz480
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 30
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true i can see establishing position. but i think id rather save my bet and see the flop. just how i would play. i just hate it when i try that and that total nit has something like J9 suited and comes out ahead. i play much smaller limits and those nits do to. lol.
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Sprayed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GO BUCKS!
Posts: 3,057
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MoneyBagz480
true i can see establishing position. but i think id rather save my bet and see the flop. just how i would play. i just hate it when i try that and that total nit has something like J9 suited and comes out ahead. i play much smaller limits and those nits do to. lol.
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This is terrible thinking. You are raising to take control of the hand, because you probably are ahead of his range, and you are preventing others from coming in. The flop seldom hits their hand and if you raised preflop you are taking control of the hand and they will check to you and you then c-bet and they fold. If they don't you reevaluate your hand on the turn. You will make more money in the long run.
Also, nits don't open limp from mp with J9s. Nits are super tight and when they raise they have a decent hand.
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MoneyBagz480
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 30
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were not talking about limping. the subject was 3 betting. therefore that "nit" would be raising a minimum bet. and then we were discussing whether to 3 bet or call. in my case these "nits" do raise the min with hands like J9s and I would call that raise with A10s and see the flop. I'm more about trapping then chasing people out and winning small pots. so taking control of the hand doesnt really apply to my style of play. i would rather let them think they are in control and then pop em on the turn or the river. depending on whether flush or str8 draws are out there. and if you call a min raise a open limp then i guess were all on the same page. ive never heard that term. 
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Sprayed
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: GO BUCKS!
Posts: 3,057
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by MoneyBagz480
were not talking about limping. the subject was 3 betting. therefore that "nit" would be raising a minimum bet. and then we were discussing whether to 3 bet or call. in my case these "nits" do raise the min with hands like J9s and I would call that raise with A10s and see the flop. I'm more about trapping then chasing people out and winning small pots. so taking control of the hand doesnt really apply to my style of play. i would rather let them think they are in control and then pop em on the turn or the river. depending on whether flush or str8 draws are out there. and if you call a min raise a open limp then i guess were all on the same page. ive never heard that term. |
I was refering to the original hand to where MP2 open limped which is not a nit play. MP2 did not raise. Nits are rockish and play strong hands and raise when they play them. Usually, nits don't raise hands like J9s. TAGs might. Also, smooth calling raises preflop is not a good play in limit. In addition, you don't have to be fancy by "popping them" on the turn and river. Just play standard ABC poker. Someone bets the min and you have ATs in position, you 3 bet or fold IMO. I might call if there are several other callers. Doesn't sound like we are on the same page.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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cold-calling, or smooth calling, is a horrible leak in a fixed limit structure. as a general rule, you 3bet it for forget it.
if you cold call more than 1% of the time, its something you need to look closer at when reviewing your game. i can see some examples, but almost never when you are the first one to call the raise. if there are 2 others that already called it, like at a live 3/6 casino table, it becomes a little more tolerable w/ KQs or pp's/sc's. but that situation should almost never present itself.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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LawDude
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Full House
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 940
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
cold-calling, or smooth calling, is a horrible leak in a fixed limit structure. as a general rule, you 3bet it for forget it.
if you cold call more than 1% of the time, its something you need to look closer at when reviewing your game. i can see some examples, but almost never when you are the first one to call the raise. if there are 2 others that already called it, like at a live 3/6 casino table, it becomes a little more tolerable w/ KQs or pp's/sc's. but that situation should almost never present itself.
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This is, I think, a situation where live and online poker are completely different.
I basically agree with this in a good online game. If you don't re-raise, odds are someone else will. There aren't going to be many family pots.
But live players can't multitable and they get bored. That means you can take advantage of tables where people are limping everything to widen your limping range and get more players into the pot with hands that play well multiway, whereas if you raise at such a table, you are basically buying position but losing the chance to play a multi-way pot.
This creates an opportunity for limping to be a much more important part of your game than it can ever be at decent online tables.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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i was talking about calling two cold....not overlimping. i love to overlimp and just dont get the chance online much. i still suspect its why i will murder 25c/50c games, but all of a sudden see the reverse at 50/1 tables.
when NL used to let you overlimp, it was perhaps the biggest bread and butter play at lower stakes. your implied odds went through the roof with sc's and small pp's and AXs hands.
however, the upper end of online microstakes has really killed that option. there is so much preflop raising and reraising that i wonder if we shouldnt get in there with some of the same hands? but, the problem is the structure of LHE fails to give off implied odds to play 78s profitably for 2-3 bets pf.....it just wont work.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
cold-calling, or smooth calling, is a horrible leak in a fixed limit structure. as a general rule, you 3bet it for forget it.
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In 6-max, sure. But in very loose FR games, cold-calling with pocket pairs, AXs and suited connectors can be profitable. But I'm talking very loose - you need to have 4 to 5 players in the pot in front of you with the expectation of others calling as well. Think about it this way: you have better odds cold calling with 5 already in the hand than you do overcalling a limper or two.
That said, these loose games have pretty much disappeared online, but don't take cold-calling out of your arsenal completely.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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i hear you. the only thing, though, i have found that can come even close to mimicking a live game is 2c/4c full ring games....maybe 5c/10c. but, over that, and you just dont see the looseness to which you speak of with regularity anymore.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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