|
Demiparadigm
|
08-22-2005, 10:36 AM
Post subject: 20/40 B&M turn question
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
|
|
20/40 9 handed
Hero is Button with 8 9
UTG calls, 2folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.
Flop(6SBs) 7 9 J
BB bets, UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero calls
Turn (4.5 BBs) 9
BB bets, UTG raises, Hero?...
|
|
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
|~|ypermegachi
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
|
|
i call, hoping to keep the BB in. then raise the river on a non-flush/non-straight.
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
What do you know about UTG? At this level it shouldn't be just a game of cards...
Close decision, small pot, I would just fold this one knowing that sometimes you're best here and that's close enough to ok to move onto the next hand.
Looking at it again, why would you over-call on that flop in an unraised pot? Looks like reverse implied odds to me. I only see 3 cards in the deck that really will make you want to jam the pot.
|
|
|
|
a500lbgorilla
|
|
JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
|
|
Does anyone raise the flop to clean up your two pair outs?
-'rilla
|
Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
|
|
elipsesjeff
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
|
|
I would raise the flop to see a free river card if given to me. That third nine definately didn't hurt your marginal holding. However, if you fold here why were you calling in the first place?
He also had 11-1 to call his gutshot on the flop, more than enough, not including the possibility of two pair or trips. I'm not folding here, you have trips medium kicker against someone who limped UTG. I put him on AJ possibly A9s. You do have lots of outs to improve, any 7,8,9 or T here gives you at least a split.
Online, I would raise this hand, but live I'm more inclined to call down.
|
Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
He also had 11-1 to call his gutshot on the flop, more than enough, not including the possibility of two pair or trips.
|
The pot math is wrong. Should be 4.5BB on the turn.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
I'm not folding here, you have trips medium kicker against someone who limped UTG. I put him on AJ possibly A9s. You do have lots of outs to improve, any 7,8,9 or T here gives you at least a split.
|
Doesn't sound like enough outs to continue here. It's a tough spot (hence the post.) In tough spots I really want more information on the table texture and such...
|
|
|
|
elipsesjeff
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
The pot math is wrong. Should be 4.5BB on the turn.
|
Even 9-1 is good here, can probably go as low as 7-1.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Doesn't sound like enough outs to continue here. It's a tough spot (hence the post.) I tough spots I really want more information on the table texture and such...
|
11 outs to win, you will win this 25% of the time, if not more if you don't improve. You are gettin roughly 6-1 to call here assuming BB stays in, which is roughly 15% and you are only looking at pot odds. You chance of winning also increases via a raise, however, you want BB in the pot if you think he'll overcall with a worse hand drawing dead.
|
Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Low stakes this is a definite 3-bet since you're most likely to be ahead and you don't want the flush draw to draw for free.
Don't know what happens at those stakes though :P
|
|
|
|
jmontis
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
|
|
interesting, is it really better to focus on pure math than things like table texture, who is raising? no wonder I suck at limit....
This is why it's good to spectate a game for a little while before you sit, with a half decent read you'd have an idea of what he plays and why he'd raise.
so what were the results, did the donkey have 8T? JJ? 77? A9?
|
|
take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iopq
Low stakes this is a definite 3-bet since you're most likely to be ahead and you don't want the flush draw to draw for free.
|
Low stakes UTG usually has you so beat here after smooth calling the flop and popping the turn. At around 2/4 - 3/6 online we'll have the best hand more often.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iopq
Low stakes this is a definite 3-bet since you're most likely to be ahead and you don't want the flush draw to draw for free.
|
Low stakes UTG usually has you so beat here after smooth calling the flop and popping the turn. At around 2/4 - 3/6 online we'll have the best hand more often. |
It depends
On champs I'd say UTG can have anything. AK, QJ, 92, some kind of a draw
but on powerplayer it's probably trips because the players are more passive there so a raise on the turn is more alarming
but remember, as far as kickers go, you have the middle one (jack and seven make full house, rest are as likely)
So, on champs I'd 3-bet, on powerplayer I'd call
|
|
|
|
elipsesjeff
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by jmontis
interesting, is it really better to focus on pure math than things like table texture, who is raising? no wonder I suck at limit....
This is why it's good to spectate a game for a little while before you sit, with a half decent read you'd have an idea of what he plays and why he'd raise.
so what were the results, did the donkey have 8T? JJ? 77? A9?
|
As long as the math is there you have NO reason to fold. You've got tons of outs to draw out if you are behind.
Table texture is unimportant when you are getting the odds to call. Your reads can either increase or decrease your chances of winning and when you relate that to the odds you are getting then you make the decision.
To tell you the truth, this hand is not brain surgery. The percentage of times this will happen is miniscule and being in a marginal situation leads me to do one thing: call down. At most you will lose 3 bets, but you could win 12. Simply put, you are ahead here more than 15% of the time, and thus should call down.
Also, I've seen a retarded AA and KK make a play like this, with no reads, I'm not folding.
|
Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
|
|
Demiparadigm
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
|
|
All right... table texture is soft, and loose. Often 5-6 players will see a flop, and most hands are raised preflop. It was not too strange to see a raise after some limpers, and have the raiser show down something like J9s or 44. A couple of players are pro grinders, the sb in this hand knows Chip Jett and Thomas Keller, both of which used to play in this game before leaving for vegas and bigger limits.
MP2 is a maniac, and egomaniac... at one point talking about having dinner the night before with Chris Ferguson which got a few chuckles from the table. He then said "why don't you put up $1000 and I'll show you the picture" To which I replied, "Why don't you put up $1000 and we'll play a heads up freezeout" Which shut him up for a few minutes.
MP3 is the wife of MP2. As far as I can tell, she limps with anything suited or connected, raises any time she is in LP and planning to play and she is catching cards and way up. Otherwise MP2&3 would be the big donators for the session (MP2 is down about $1000 so far)
BB is an older asian man who plays few hands pre flop, but will bet any piece of the board post flop. If I had the opportunity, I would have raised the flop to isolate him and clear up what outs I could, but with UTG in, I figured one of the two had me beat.
UTG is fairly new to the table, and seems to be an average player for this game, playing a few too many hands pre flop, but showing down solid holdings.
|
|
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
BB is an older asian man who plays few hands pre flop, but will bet any piece of the board post flop. If I had the opportunity, I would have raised the flop to isolate him and clear up what outs I could, but with UTG in, I figured one of the two had me beat.
UTG is fairly new to the table, and seems to be an average player for this game, playing a few too many hands pre flop, but showing down solid holdings.
|
Now we're playing poker...
So it looks like BB is drawing and UTG caught something.
|
|
|
|
Demiparadigm
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
i call, hoping to keep the BB in. then raise the river on a non-flush/non-straight.
|
I agree with this if I had a stronger hand, like the full house or straight... but what range do you think UTG is raising here? I can really only beat top pair or a bluff.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Close decision, small pot, I would just fold this one knowing that sometimes you're best here and that's close enough to ok to move onto the next hand.
|
I seriously thought about this, and whereas I would obviously raise if UTG had just called, I think a fold is not a bad play vs the range that UTG is raising here.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Looking at it again, why would you over-call on that flop in an unraised pot? Looks like reverse implied odds to me. I only see 3 cards in the deck that really will make you want to jam the pot.
|
without position I agree to an extent, but as the button, I think my weak draw is more than enough to continue (pair, gutshot and backdoor flush should be equal to maybe 6-7 outs)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by 'Rilla
Does anyone raise the flop to clean up your two pair outs?
|
Not on a draw heavy board like this, with no overcards, where 2 pair is often no good. The chance of folding a single ten is not worth the extra bet, here. However, I would have raised to isolate the BB if I could, since he is often on a weaker hand, and If not, I have outs.
I am also last to act, so I am not getting anyone to fold who hasn't already.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
However, if you fold here why were you calling in the first place?
|
Again, it is UTG's raise that makes this tricky. It is possible that i am drawing dead, or at best to a split.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
The pot math is wrong. Should be 4.5BB on the turn.
|
oops... fixed.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Fnord
Low stakes UTG usually has you so beat here after smooth calling the flop and popping the turn. At around 2/4 - 3/6 online we'll have the best hand more often.
|
Yeah, normally this game plays a lot like 3/6 on Party. This day was just goofy though.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
being in a marginal situation leads me to do one thing: call down. At most you will lose 3 bets, but you could win 12. Simply put, you are ahead here more than 15% of the time, and thus should call down.
|
Exactly my thinking. I called the turn, and river, and UTG showed A9.
|
|
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
|
|
jmontis
|
|
Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Table texture is unimportant when you are getting the odds to call. Your reads can either increase or decrease your chances of winning and when you relate that to the odds you are getting then you make the decision.
|
thanks jeff, you answer a lot of my specific questions, I plan on being a pretty serious limit player in the future (when the military allows me) and i'm trying to get as sharp as I can at it.
|
|
take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by jmontis
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Table texture is unimportant when you are getting the odds to call. Your reads can either increase or decrease your chances of winning and when you relate that to the odds you are getting then you make the decision.
|
thanks jeff, you answer a lot of my specific questions, I plan on being a pretty serious limit player in the future (when the military allows me) and i'm trying to get as sharp as I can at it. |
...also consider that the Party 15/30 game is HIGHLY aggressive. Probably more like a 50/100 live game. 'rilla said something today like "bad players are different, better kind of bad" when talking about bigger games. There are laydowns you just can't make in that game. Even going from the online games I play into a loose/passive 4/8 or 6/12 game I find myself instinctivly calling down in spots where those players just have me beat too often. There is a reason weak/tight players move up and feed into bigger games. Their style works at the lowest levels. If you know you're pretty much always beat you can fold getting 20:1 and the best players manage to do this. One of the fustrations of that game in particular is you have to call down in many close spots when in doubt and ride the variance rollar-coaster.
|
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
Linear Mode
