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Airles™
Old 03-05-2009, 01:40 AM     Post subject: 2 Hands #1 (permalink)  
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So I'm at the 25c/50c tables tonight... the lines at the 1/2 tables are ridiculous. Anyway... I only have around 3k hands at this limit in PT but my aggression level is through the roof. Whaddya think of this hand? Should I be flatting the flop c/r at all? Show more aggression on turn/river? Villain has shown to be aggressive post-flop but doesn't raise much pre (like ever). I wanted to bet but it felt like a spew.

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, K
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls

Flop: (9 SB) 4, J, 10 (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls

Turn: (8 BB) 9 (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

River: (8 BB) K (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $4 (8 BB) | Rake: $0.15


Hand 2, Villain is a known fish 69/8. Would you play this any different

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9, 9
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Hero calls, 2 folds, BB checks

Flop: (4.4 SB) 8, K, 2 (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks

Turn: (2.2 BB) K (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls

River: (6.2 BB) 6 (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls

Total pot: $4.10 (8.2 BB) | Rake: $0.15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
 
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Knytestorme
Old 03-05-2009, 02:57 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 I'd bet the river. Yes the K got there to make any Q a straight but you showed no desire at the pot on the turn after getting your 3-bet called on the flop so he has no reason to believe you are going to bet the river to go for a c/r, if he had the straight he's have led the river.

Hand 2, I'm not sure I'd be calling the river. Yes I know the guy is bad but that just means something like Kxs is way in his range...I'd just let it go and look for a better spot from the turn on. Also, raise preflop please.
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Airles™
Old 03-05-2009, 03:18 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 I def agree I should have bet the river.

Hand 2 I put Villain on either an 8 or a lower pair throughout the entire hand but it did feel a tad like a hero call.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
 
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BennyLaRue
Old 03-05-2009, 03:31 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: You have a huge draw...the nut flush, overs and a gutshot. The 3-bet on the flop is good. Bet the turn. As played, b/c the river. His aggression was on the flop and stayed there...a likely middle pair.

Hand 2: Raise pre-flop, especially with a loose-passive in the hand. You want to get it heads up whenever possible. MP2's overcall means he isn't going anywhere pre but a cont bet on the flop might get rid of him. Pairs smaller than 88 are good for set mining but you have a real hand here already so push your edge. Bet the flop.

As far as the river call is concerned, a read is necessary. What's his AF? Has he been caught bluffing before? If his AF is extremely low, fold. Otherwise, pay him to flip over his 86o or whatever he had.
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DrivingDog
Old 03-05-2009, 09:04 PM #5 (permalink)  
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1) I just call the flop c/r. We have a monster draw but it's still just a draw and we want others to stay in the pot. The only reason to 3bet is to get extra FE from UTG+1 but all you accomplish by 3betting is shutting out SB (who probably has close to 0 equity against you) and getting extra FE against UTG+1 for when you hit an A or a K, which is kinda counterproductive. Let him keep the lead because you need to improve to win and you'd like the chance to raise if you improve.

As played I agree with checking behind on the turn. He's not going anywhere on that board and getting c/rd really blows.

As played I'm betting the river. If he c/rs you can probably dump it but he's probably calling with any pair after you check the turn.

2) Raise preflop. Bet flop. On turn I don't like the raise because it's bloating the pot and UTG+1 is not going to put in more money with a worse hand if you raise. On the river i think you are beat but you should probably make a crying call just in case he's doing something retarded.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Chopper
Old 03-06-2009, 04:41 AM #6 (permalink)  
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at first glance, i bet turn and river in hand one. what are you waiting for? you have gutter, nfd, and two overs! you may get some weak pairs to fold and you have a nice redraw if you get called (which is likely down here). bet turn for possible free showdown. bet river because you connected TPTK AND he checked it to you AGAIN.

as played, i dont like calling the donk on the river, but i think i do it, too. i dont know how it can be the K when he didnt 3bet the turn. but, i see JJ/QQ here some, too. i just dont know what it is and am not sold i'm beat so i likely call it off. on my good days, i see the dumbest 6 in the world.

however, i play it a lot differently. i am inclined to raise pre. when i do, i definitely fire the flop with 2nd pair in the hole. and, i follow up when that K pairs the turn, its a great scare card to follow through on after i've shown all the aggression. if we have stations in the hand, we are pushing some thin value, but value nonetheless.

my .02.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

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asdpikas
Old 03-06-2009, 09:06 AM #7 (permalink)  
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hand 1.
I 3bet flop 100%. I know we dont have a made hand, but this is as good as a draw gets. Your equity is awesome. I personally fire again turn. If i get c/r, i have so many outs.... i call and play river fit or fold. If he just calls, i fire river on improvement or take a fsd w AK hi.
As played, easy river v-bet.

hand2.
I raise PF there. both for value, and to get initiative and try to buy position.
As played PF:
i fire flop
As played flop:
i call turn bet in position, see if others fold. If HU on river, i call down on undercard, maybe fold on A, Q, J, T... with read of fishiness i would tend to call more than usual.
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Fnord
Old 03-06-2009, 10:09 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Hand 1: Bet turn
Hand 2: Raise-flop, bet the flop

If you're missing easy bets like this you're probaby checking and calling too much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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DrivingDog
Old 03-06-2009, 02:34 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Hand 1: Bet turn
Hand 2: Raise-flop, bet the flop

If you're missing easy bets like this you're probaby checking and calling too much.
Hand 2 i agree.

Hand 1 I dont think it's an easy bet at all on the turn, or even one you should be making. The flop nails his open-limping range, he's never folding a better hand like Jx, Tx, Q9, K9, 98 etc. here to a turn bet, and he can hammer you with his bigger hands. Sure you get value from other FDs, but those are much less likely holdings for villian given the AcKc in your hand and the Jc on the board. What is he supposed to have that makes it a good idea to bet here? 66? 6c5c?

There's just no sense in pumping the pot HU with a big draw after he c/rs the flop imo (even though everyone seems to do it) AND the turn hits his drawing range. You want to be doing that when he has lots of possible outs and/or might fold a better hand, not when you have lots of possible outs and can't fold to a c/r.

Just calling the flop c/r keeps you in a better space in this hand imo. There's nothing to fear from keeping SB in the pot, and you can call a turn bet and fold the river if you miss. It's just too unlikely he's got 'only' a draw here to make pumping the pot anything but donating chips when behind.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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asdpikas
Old 03-06-2009, 03:03 PM #10 (permalink)  
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hmm...

you are most likely ahead in hand 1. You are ahead of all holdings except 44, TT, JJ.
Vs JT or AA its a virtual coinflip (given position and implied odds).
If u let the turn fall, and dont hit, your equity goes down huge. You should tend to give more action while you are ahead. Pot is also big enough, and even if sb folds, with the dead money in there, it's more than worth it to raise here. You dont only have great equity 3ways, you have as much equity as an overpair, even ahead of reverse dominating hands like AJ or KJ.
The 3bet, also allows for the free card play if you whiff, like in this particular hand, if villain is SD prone. If villain is tight postflop, betting turn without improvement should be automatic.

On the turn the pot is 8BB, so even as a pure bluff, you only have to take it down 12% of the time to show a profit. Given that the times you are called, you will still make the absolute nuts 20% of the time, seminuts 4%, and a strong hand ~10%, I absolutely like firing the turn 99.999% of the time
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Chopper
Old 03-06-2009, 03:13 PM #11 (permalink)  
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again, Dog, you are usually right, imo. and, i like your analysis of the flop 3bet because i tend to jam these pots.

but, at 25/50c, i think we need to jam. these guys are huge stations and they generally have no problem calling 2 cold no matter the spot. so, it actually milks him for a couple more if he likes his draw. i am rather shocked SB folded, to be honest.

isnt this more of a SSHE thing? meaning, forego playing "by the book" a bit in big pot scenarios to maxx your chances of taking a big pot with a big drawing hand that has huge equity? if villains think (giving a lot of credit here), they cant be thinking we are on AKs anymore with that 3bet. and, we may get a lead when Mr Clubbie hits the turn and be able to pop them for a turn raise, too.

even if SB folds, we love our equity going forward, right? and, if SB calls, we really love it.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

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DrivingDog
Old 03-06-2009, 05:10 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Ok well i don't want to get into another headbutting argument here. And I appreciate that good, aggressive players like to ram and jam this hand. I just don't think it's optimal for the reasons given above.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Airles™
Old 03-06-2009, 05:44 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Thanks for all the comments. FWIW, villain in H1 held T6c and H2 had 44.

In H1, I really was unsure if I should have jammed the pot or let others stay in. Obviously the consensus here though was keep betting, or at least bet the river. Guess I had "river check/raise" syndrome, who knows.

Against a lot of guys, I'd consider folding on the river in H2, but not to that guy. I saw him bet out/call down numerous times with bottom or middle pair and even whiffed overs. I was fairly certain my 99 was good here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
 
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lockpull
Old 03-06-2009, 06:04 PM #14 (permalink)  
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HAND 1.... I jam the pot as high as it will go on flop..... If he calls I bet/raise turn. I also fire another bet on the river after his check since you hit one of the outs you were going for. It may not be the best card to hit but why add it into you outs if you are not going to bet when you hit it.

HAND 2.... I play it just like that but without the raise on the turn. Usually the only calls will be from better hands and if he had raised what would you have done?


Decision making - When decisions are not based on information, it's called gambling
 
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DrivingDog
Old 03-06-2009, 08:48 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airles™
Against a lot of guys, I'd consider folding on the river in H2, but not to that guy. I saw him bet out/call down numerous times with bottom or middle pair and even whiffed overs. I was fairly certain my 99 was good here.
This is info that you need to include in the OP. Once you say that no-one is going to fold that river.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Airles™
Old 03-06-2009, 09:13 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airles™
Against a lot of guys, I'd consider folding on the river in H2, but not to that guy. I saw him bet out/call down numerous times with bottom or middle pair and even whiffed overs. I was fairly certain my 99 was good here.
This is info that you need to include in the OP. Once you say that no-one is going to fold that river.
Yeah, you're right. I noted that he was a major fish but sorry for not giving y'all post-flop reads.
Quote:
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