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pocketfours
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12-15-2010, 04:54 AM
Post subject: 2/2 PLO5 live 400BB deep.
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#1 (permalink)
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7 handed €2/€2 PL DC live. Eff stacks €800. Hand in question is five card omaha.
Villain is a well known live pro. I've played a lot of NLHE against him live and I've got very little respect for his game. I don't really know what he thinks about me. He def knows that I'm a holdem player and that I'm not very experienced in omaha.
Both CO and BU are fish. Everyone at the table has VPIP over 65%.
Preflop: Hero is SB with 5 7 6 T T
UTG bets €8, 2 folds, CO calls, BU calls, Hero calls, BB calls.
Flop: (€40) 6 8 K (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, CO checks, BU checks
Turn: (€40) K (5 players)
Hero bets €40, BB folds, UTG raises to €160, 2 folds, Hero raises to €520...
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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Hmmm - it's the weirdest play ever with a draw so it seems like he usually has Kxxx with no spades or air? I think you end up with 30% or so vs the K but I dunno with the 5 cards. so it can't really be terrible unless he's checking 66/88 on flop. I think that is the right play but doubt most lol live pros would.
I think I might rather call and then call again on river if you think he has this much air or could do this with the nfd? Then you get two bluffs from him and lose less to Kx and have the awesome feeling of tabling middle pair for the ship.
what was the river plan?
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pocketfours
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Would you check 66/88 on the flop even with the two fish in CO and BU?
I don't think he has air an absurd amount but I think he virtually never has a boat. I saw clearly that he didn't even consider betting the flop. I'd say he very likely has AKxxx but I'm betting he folds it. If I didn't think I'll get credit for K8 here I wouldn't have 3bet. Pretty huge difference between PLO4 and PLO5 in how often you are facing the nuts in these spots.
If I'm wrong and he calls with AKQJT then I'll still have some equity.
As for river plan I've got too little behind to do anything on the river but c/f. If the river is 4cdh/Tcd I can still jam my €270ish for value.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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maybe not just vs two fish, but there are still two good players left and this isn't a board I want to get flatted on much. Esp with 66, 88 is much closer. That said it's always easier to see check sets in theory than in practice, more so live getting 20 hands an hour. But it is just so easy to be behind or flipping on this board and those hands play much better than 66/88.
AKQJ has 22.5% vs K844 with neither having spades. He gets more equity with card 5 so with that plus implied odds plus the chance you aren't full it seems to me like he should call or not raise in the first place vs some crazy person from northern europe.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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It's also true that I'm hardly ever playing 66 or 88 without connectors, if I had the nut gutter or better to go with it I would not check
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
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this looks like a fun way to get it in drawing dead since K6xxx and K8xxx are def in his range if he s not stupid.
that being said, you rep a boat soooo well that i would prefer to 3 bet smaller if you feel like spazzing this spot and shove most rivers expecting to fold when he doesn t fill up.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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pocketfours
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
this looks like a fun way to get it in drawing dead since K6xxx and K8xxx are def in his range if he s not stupid.
that being said, you rep a boat soooo well that i would prefer to 3 bet smaller if you feel like spazzing this spot and shove most rivers expecting to fold when he doesn t fill up.
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It's live and I'm confident that I got his flop reaction right. He doesn't have a boat. Tiny chance he has K6 but that's hardly even in his UTG open range. And yeah he's pretty terrible.
I also don't think he realizes the extent of his cappedness and its implications.
I like the idea of raising small and shoving river. I'd just like a littttle more chips for that. Also shoving any 89TJQA will receive less credit.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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why aren't we shoving low spades or c/c them on river if he flats?
you could 3 bet to say 360 to leave a better bullet? to me that looks more like the nuts than this which I think is pot. But this makes more sense if you want to rep 66/88. In the times I have played live people mostly just say pot so you taking the time/energy to not do so might spook him more.
surely there are tons of hands he'll open in a loose game - like 4 BWs and a 6 and a suit along with stuff like K9876? If you say he doesn't have a boat it's cool, but has to come from the read, not open range.
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pocketfours
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
why aren't we shoving low spades or c/c them on river if he flats?
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Doubt he calls with worse when the flush hits and I don't think he is going to bluff or vb worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
you could 3 bet to say 360 to leave a better bullet? to me that looks more like the nuts than this which I think is pot. But this makes more sense if you want to rep 66/88. In the times I have played live people mostly just say pot so you taking the time/energy to not do so might spook him more.
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Yeah this should be fine although it's just pretty painful considering I know he is never folding the turn. I'd still like to have a little more left for the river. Scandinavians are suckers for good odds though and can you blame them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
surely there are tons of hands he'll open in a loose game - like 4 BWs and a 6 and a suit along with stuff like K9876? If you say he doesn't have a boat it's cool, but has to come from the read, not open range.
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I'm almost certain he doesn't open K9876 from UTG with a raise.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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So if the 2s hits he now has a full house? if the read is that shaky I like the play a lot less.
I don't understand the other comment either, if he loves odds then he's never folding AKQJT9.
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Genitruc
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Straight Flush
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what about AAK67 AAKQQ, pretty much every single AAKxx hand, seems like he could show up with those plenty and fold riv if you leave a credible amount behind for a shove. i m still not sure i understand the turn pot-3bet.
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when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
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pocketfours
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
So if the 2s hits he now has a full house? if the read is that shaky I like the play a lot less.
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No of course not. If the 2s hits he will only call with a better flush and probably not even with that. Definitely no value in shoving, the question is do I c/c or c/f. I don't think he turns his Kx into a bluff so I c/f but I don't expect him to bet 2s like ever.
Edit: Ok, so I could bet like €80 and make him pay to see.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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we'll just have to agree to disagree, I don't understand why we'd check the best hand knowing he won't bluff. To me if there is that much doubt in your mind that he'd check Kx spades the whole play should be aborted.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
we'll just have to agree to disagree, I don't understand why we'd check the best hand knowing he won't bluff. To me if there is that much doubt in your mind that he'd check Kx spades the whole play should be aborted.
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I'm missing your point here, could you rephrase? I don't understand why his river action with Kx spades when checked to is relevant?
I do not think he will fold AKQJT9 on the turn. I do think he will fold AKQQJ etc though.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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1) he doesn't have K8 or Kx spades since you said he didn't even consider flop bet.
2) So we have the best hand when a low spade comes pretty much all the time.
3) the pot is laying him a huge price
4) you could still be bluffing, for example to get him to fold ace high
5) you said you don't think he will bet/bluff worse.
so if 1) is true, we should bet the end when we make a hand. I can see c/f big spades but saying we are folding the low ones means we don't have much faith in 1). if that is true, I don't think the bluff is good because it's close even if we're sure he more or less never has a boat.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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Also him raise/folding AKQQJ on the turn is terrible. I know you said he's bad but that hand has too much value on the river as either a bluff catcher or the nuts to risk getting raised off it. So it is hard for me to feel like anyone would make that play. I'm not saying this guy won't but again that's just going to be your read, not something we can logic out.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
1) he doesn't have K8 or Kx spades since you said he didn't even consider flop bet.
2) So we have the best hand when a low spade comes pretty much all the time.
3) the pot is laying him a huge price
4) you could still be bluffing, for example to get him to fold ace high
5) you said you don't think he will bluff worse.
so if 1) is true, we should bet the end when we make a hand. I can see c/f big spades but saying we are folding the low ones means we don't have much faith in 1). if that is true, I don't think the bluff is good because it's close even if we're sure he more or less never has a boat.
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Yeah ok, thanks for clearing that up. I think we pretty much agree here. I was just thinking that he could randomly have hit Q or J high spades. I did already say that I like a small river bet and I guess just jamming should be fine as well. I guess he could even fold his random Q/J high spades since we don't know his tendencies too well.
I've also changed my mind in that I do think we should try a desperate river bluff here even when we do miss. He could have put us on the nuts and still called the turn with his AKQJ9 type hands so he might fold now. Low risk high reward.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
Also him raise/folding AKQQJ on the turn is terrible. I know you said he's bad but that hand has too much value on the river as either a bluff catcher or the nuts to risk getting raised off it. So it is hard for me to feel like anyone would make that play. I'm not saying this guy won't but again that's just going to be your read, not something we can logic out.
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His turn play is terrible, period. No?
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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re the river bet I agree, plus it would be a disaster if he somehow has JJ/QQ with spades and we didn't bet a brick. even if he somehow called I'd be happy I bet just on principle.
I think the only hand I would like his turn play with is if he does have K8 because it's so disguised , but if he does have it I would either hate his open pre or flop check or more likely both.
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pocketfours
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Phew, agreement finally. This was very helpful, need to post more hands.
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TLR
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What is PLO5?
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
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Omaha with 5 cards.
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