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1st hand at table, flop the nuts -- o.k. to slowplay?

  
 
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face
Old 04-21-2005, 02:49 AM     Post subject: 1st hand at table, flop the nuts -- o.k. to slowplay? #1 (permalink)  
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face
Texas Hold'em $1-$2{spam link}(real money),{spam link}hand{spam link}#837,060,606
Table Minneapolis,{spam link}20 Apr 2005 09:31 PM
View{spam link} Previous{spam link} |{spam link} Next{spam link} hand for this table.
Seat{spam link}1:{spam link}bigm61{spam link}($105.50{spam link}in{spam link}chips)
Seat{spam link}2:{spam link}_joseywales{spam link}($5.75{spam link}in{spam link}chips)
Seat{spam link}3:{spam link}Tcats37{spam link}($94{spam link}in{spam link}chips)
Seat{spam link}4:{spam link}D_Vedder{spam link}($161.75{spam link}in{spam link}chips)
Seat{spam link}5:{spam link}spirit44{spam link}($99.75{spam link}in{spam link}chips)
Seat{spam link}6:{spam link}gunnar32{spam link}($11{spam link}in{spam link}chips)
Seat{spam link}7:{spam link}wzeller{spam link}[QD,6D]{spam link}($99{spam link}in{spam link}chips)
Seat{spam link}8:{spam link}aquarian10{spam link}($62.75{spam link}in{spam link}chips)
Seat{spam link}9:{spam link}BluzeMan{spam link}($112{spam link}in{spam link}chips)
Seat{spam link}10:{spam link}Adam_G{spam link}($49{spam link}in{spam link}chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
gunnar32 posts blind ($0.50), wzeller posts blind ($1).
PRE-FLOP
aquarian10 folds, BluzeMan calls $1, Adam_G folds, bigm61 calls $1, _joseywales folds, Tcats37 folds, D_Vedder calls $1, spirit44 folds, gunnar32 calls $0.50, wzeller checks.
FLOP [board cards 2D,KD,AD ]
gunnar32 checks, wzeller checks, BluzeMan bets $1, bigm61 calls $1, D_Vedder folds, gunnar32 folds, wzeller calls $1.
TURN [board cards 2D,KD,AD,JS ]
wzeller checks, BluzeMan bets $2, bigm61 calls $2, wzeller calls $2.
RIVER [board cards 2D,KD,AD,JS,6C ]
wzeller checks, BluzeMan bets $2, bigm61 folds, wzeller bets $4, BluzeMan calls $2.
SHOWDOWN
wzeller shows [ QD,6D ]
BluzeMan mucks cards [ AC,JD ]
wzeller wins $21.
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Demiparadigm
Old 04-21-2005, 03:23 AM #2 (permalink)  
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You would have made more playing it fast.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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ChezJ
Old 04-21-2005, 04:12 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 no way, nobody is going to give the new guy credit for catching a monster on his first hand. they will all assume you're a maniac and call you down. bet and raise like hell.
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Shark Bait
Old 04-21-2005, 09:28 AM #4 (permalink)  
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yeah, big difference from no limit. slow playing almost always results in one of two things...you win too little for the monster of a hand you have, or you get rivered by some crap hand because you didn't bet enough.

There's an argument that if you're going to slow play, do it on the flop because the bets are still small. Then on the turn and river go in maniac mode. Even if people just call you, they'll be calling the big bets, instead of small bets. And you're also confusing them because they might think you hit something on the turn.

The other argument is that people are far more likely to call a SB than a BB. You might find too many people folding to your BB after you slow played the flop. They may have been willing to call the flop SB, but not the river BB.

I just don't slow play ever in limit...but that's just me.
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Demiparadigm
Old 04-21-2005, 10:23 AM #5 (permalink)  
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The only correct time to slowplay in limit is when you have the deck "crippled" for example you get a free play in the BB with 74o and the flop comes 774. even so, often it is correct to bet because players with overcards will most likely call a small bet, but not a big bet. Also, it is unlikely that people will put you on a strong hand since most players would slowplay it.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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honsheung
Old 04-21-2005, 10:27 AM #6 (permalink)  
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I will call in flop and raise in turn. Don't konw if this is correct or not.
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honsheung
Old 04-21-2005, 10:28 AM #7 (permalink)  
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anyway, face's play is not a big mistake, at least to me?
any comment?
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pokerfanatic
Old 04-21-2005, 02:21 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChezJ
no way, nobody is going to give the new guy credit for catching a monster on his first hand. they will all assume you're a maniac and call you down. bet and raise like hell.
I agree, I’m coming out of the gate like a bat out of hell and I'm betting and rising as much as I can...
“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

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"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
 
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lonnie
Old 04-21-2005, 02:34 PM #9 (permalink)  
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I think the check/smooth call on the flop is fine. However, if you play it that way, you should be check/raising the turn. Raising the flop could chase out potential customers IMO. Check raise the turn because you have two players trapped with a bet in with a card to come. They will almost always call in this spot.

Remember, waiting until the river to raise is bad - the dream is over at this point with no more cards coming out. If you are going to make a tricky play from EP, pop them on the turn next time.

The other line, check raising the flop..I don't know what you gain by doing this. You will still only get one BB on the turn and one BB on the river by going crazy on the flop. Turn c/r is the way I play this.
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pokerfanatic
Old 04-21-2005, 02:39 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Lonnie, you have to realize that the players at .5/1 and 1/2 are typically going to pay you off, I think you will make more here by betting like hell into loose players, but I would agree if the table was slightly tighter then a slow play would be more profitable... It's all about making the most BB out of the hand you can in the given situation after a flop like that...
“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

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lonnie
Old 04-21-2005, 02:48 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Lonnie, you have to realize that the players at .5/1 and 1/2 are typically going to pay you off
I've played tens of thousands of hands at these limits, and I know what you are saying. Let's realistically look at what the pot will be played different ways.

If he bets out on the flop,turn, river and never gets raised - he makes 1 BB less.

If he check raises the turn and both call, he gets 2 BB more.

There is a chance that Bluezeman will pop him with a raise on the flop or turn, as he has top pair and turns two pair, with the second best flush draw. You might get an extra bet out of Bluezman, but I think you will shut bigm out of the pot on the flop.

In this scenario, you are depending on Bluezeman to raise for you to profit more than the turn check/raise. Since he has no idea how these guys play, I think his best EV move is the turn check/raise. Also, he has no idea that Blueze has a strong hand. Now, if I knew what Bluezeman held...I would bet out anticipating the raise. We dont know that of course.

This might just be splitting hairs actually.
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pokerfanatic
Old 04-21-2005, 09:30 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I see your point but you have a taz at the table you almost always get raised if he has anything... I can go either way depending on my reads and the table...
“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
 
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honsheung
Old 04-22-2005, 12:15 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonnie
I think the check/smooth call on the flop is fine. However, if you play it that way, you should be check/raising the turn. Raising the flop could chase out potential customers IMO. Check raise the turn because you have two players trapped with a bet in with a card to come. They will almost always call in this spot.

Remember, waiting until the river to raise is bad - the dream is over at this point with no more cards coming out. If you are going to make a tricky play from EP, pop them on the turn next time.

The other line, check raising the flop..I don't know what you gain by doing this. You will still only get one BB on the turn and one BB on the river by going crazy on the flop. Turn c/r is the way I play this.
CAN U TELL ME WHY CHECK RASIE IN RIVER MUST BE WRONG?
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lonnie
Old 04-22-2005, 12:57 AM #14 (permalink)  
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CAN U TELL ME WHY CHECK RASIE IN RIVER MUST BE WRONG?
Because too many people will check through the river. Either they opt for the cheap showdown with a hand they are not sure is good enough, or they were betting a draw all along and missed. Attempting to check raise rivers is -EV IMO. The river is your last chance to get a bet in. If you've got the goods, don't get cute, bet it.

Also, like I said before, once the river hits, there are no more cards coming. That guy that likes to bet his draws now has no more cards coming. The dream is over and hands are made. Bet out unless you are dead certain your opp will bet for you. That ain't too often.

I hear this line way too often when someone tries to checkraise the river and is horrified to watch his opps check through "What do you think, I'm gonna bet YOUR hand for you? Get real!"

Even the fish can smell the c/r sometimes.
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