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Kijjo
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05-16-2010, 07:37 AM
Post subject: 10PLO Hands
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
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I'm going to try to start posting at least 1 hand each night from my session and get some feedback.
In this hand, villain was across the table from me all night, but for some reason was really aggro toward me, so wasn't really sure when he had stuff, kept playing back at me regardless.
So I felt good about the hand - was just wondering if this is standard. There's never a time that I'm an underdog here unless he got lucky and flopped a full house right? (I know it's Omaha and that happens and there's not really anything we can do about it - that's not what happened here.) So barring him flopping a full house, I'm never an underdog am I?
PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.10 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB ($9.75)
UTG ($8.55)
Hero (MP1) ($9.10)
MP2 ($2.30)
CO ($8.25)
Button ($8.25)
SB ($10.05)
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8 , 9 , Q , Q
1 fold, Hero calls $0.10, 3 folds, SB bets $0.40, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30
Flop: ($0.90) 3 , Q , 10 (2 players)
SB bets $0.70, Hero raises to $3, SB raises to $9.65 (All-In), Hero calls $5.70 (All-In)
Turn: ($18.30) J (2 players, 2 all-in)
River: ($18.30) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)
Total pot: $18.30 | Rake: $0.90
PS - really wierd, at another table he was sitting right beside me and never played back at me or said a word - like he may not even have realized I was at that one too - this is over at least 75 hands.
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
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bjsaust
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ballarat, Australia
Posts: 5,842
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Umm, he cant flop a full house on that flop.
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Just playing to improve.
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Kijjo
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
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Yeah, I realized that a couple mins ago - just over-analyzing I guess when I was previewing my post. Silly thought.
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
__________________________________________________ _____________
"What we do in life echoes in eternity."
Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kijjo
I'm never an underdog am I?
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ProPokerTools.com - Serious tools for serious players
Odds dog, but never a money dog
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Kijjo
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiggidy
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Is that serious? If so, what does that mean?
I played with the tool on this link and I can't even dream up a hand where I'd be an odds dog when the $ went in. Am I missing something?
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
__________________________________________________ _____________
"What we do in life echoes in eternity."
Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
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daven
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kijjo
So I felt good about the hand - was just wondering if this is standard. There's never a time that I'm an underdog here unless he got lucky and flopped a full house right?
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um, impossible to flop a full house on an unpaired board. Go run the odds vs something like AcKcQhJh and laugh at plo.
the link that swiggidy posted shows the spot you're in and a likely hand that villain has = you're actually behind vs his likely holding even when you have top set. Pretty sure that MCat is pointing out that even though you're behind you still have pot odds to get it in (i.e. you're behind on odds, but getting it in has a positive longterm expectation for ya)
When you get in aggro spots vs villains who have a clue you'll often find you both have odds to get all in after the flop raise... race better, hand is standard, next?
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Kijjo
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
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Ok, 2 hands from tonight...
*Note - some of these tables I'm playing at are 20-50BB, that's why everyone at the table is so short.
Hand #1
PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB ($7.65)
UTG ($3.45)
UTG+1 ($2.60)
Hero (MP1) ($3.80)
MP2 ($4.05)
CO ($16.70)
Button ($5.85)
SB ($1.80)
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J , A , K , 4
2 folds, Hero calls $0.10, 1 fold, CO calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10, SB calls $0.05, BB checks
Flop: ($0.50) Q , J , 5 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.30, CO raises to $1.40, 3 folds, Hero calls $1.10
Turn: ($3.30) 3 (2 players)
Hero ???
Hand #2
This is the last hand of a long night. I've dropped nearly 3 buy-ins with only 1 big hand that didn't go my way, everything else was simply crappy cards+crappy flops+crappity crap crap crap. So uh, I say what the heck, last hand before the bb, limp it. Should I have bet out? Just fold and call it a night?
PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
CO ($9.05)
Button ($13.65)
SB ($4.60)
BB ($9.85)
Hero (UTG) ($3.80)
UTG+1 ($23.95)
MP1 ($2.75)
MP2 ($11)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6 , 6 , A , 4
Hero calls $0.10, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.10, MP2 calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10, SB calls $0.05, BB checks
Flop: ($0.70) 2 , 3 , K (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets $0.70, CO raises to $2.40, 3 folds, Hero???
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
__________________________________________________ _____________
"What we do in life echoes in eternity."
Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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hand 1 - nfd + nut gutter = go, ship flop. plus you have a pair.
shove turn, you can't fold and if he has some huge wrap/junky two pair you'd still rather he did. run some numbers, you are probably underestimating your hand.
hand 2 - just leave the table 'early'. again with the gutter I'm never folding. I would lead out. you may even win with a 6 or A.
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Kijjo
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
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Too tired to post one tonight, decent session tho.
on hand 1 above, I got it all in and just didn't hit, was a favorite tho.
on hand 2, I shoved over, got tripled up when I made a strtflush.
It really is challenging to play tight - it's so slow!
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
__________________________________________________ _____________
"What we do in life echoes in eternity."
Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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I would open fold hand #2
OOP + baby pair = ugh
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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you are lacking in short/half-stack poker theory, both spots you posted with a 40bb stack were really easy flop jams
I don't like PF in any of the 3 hands either, raise the first two and fold the 3rd.
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Kijjo
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
you are lacking in short/half-stack poker theory, both spots you posted with a 40bb stack were really easy flop jams
I don't like PF in any of the 3 hands either, raise the first two and fold the 3rd.
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Ok, good, this is the kind of feedback I need. I've been limping a ton, so I do need to start raising pre more. I play about 40% of my hands and probably only raise about 5-10% (hadn't been using PT3 Omaha yet, wanted to focus on the game before seeing stats all the time).
So in hand #1 above, you're saying I made the right play, but to me it was kinda a tough decision, while you're telling me it should be ez to shove that.
In hand #2 you're saying ez jam too, again for me it seems tough cause I'm playing without a made hand vs. 5 opponents, feel like I'm just hoping to get lucky, but I guess the flop is so crappy for any good hand that I should be happy to get it in.
About playing short, I guess the situation I've gotten myself in with pot limit is that you get half your stack in, then a bad card comes and you've got a tough decision - I hate that, so I guess I'm playing like a panzy until I've made a strong hand before building the pot. I know this is hugely -EV, and I've got to fix it.
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
__________________________________________________ _____________
"What we do in life echoes in eternity."
Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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It's not gambling when you have more equity than your pot odds, it's called making money. This game is higher variance, if you're not willing to stick in like 40 Big Blinds with the NFD+nutgutter+pair then you're playing the wrong game.
I can see limping from UTG/UTG+1/UTG+2 with a hand like QQ89 in a 9-handed game and I can also see limping bad AAxx hands in these same games with ~30-40bb stacks looking to l/rr and commit PF. However, that changes when the 9-handed table only has 5-7 people at it and I'd just treat it like a 6max table and never limp from any spot.
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Kijjo
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
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So I've been playing full ring on Stars. At 10PLO, there are usually 3-4 tables at my playing time. Usually 2 full stack tables and 1-2 1/2 stack tables.
Ok so warning, long PLO noob question:
Most of my sessions I'm sitting at full tables and they either fit one of two profiles. The first is an "everyone limp every hand" table and the second is an "everyone will call one raise" table. When I say everyone, I mean consistently 7-8 players (I only play roughly 40% and there's usually 1 other guy that at least has some preflop standards). When I say everyone will call one raise, I mean they will limp around 'til someone raises, then everyone will call - VERY VERY rare that anyone 3bets and VERY rare that this thins the field at all.
Now typically I just play tighter than they do and if I raise on the first kind of table, because I've been tight, I usually either steal the blinds or end up heads-up, now and then 3-way, which is fine.
On the second kind of table, I'll play very tight because I don't want to play vs. 8 people, and I'll 3bet premium hands. These will still usually end up getting 3+ calls, re-raise allin pre, etc. - there's so much $ in the pot by then 1/2 the table thinks they're committed since they're playing short, etc.
So, the question is...in the second kind of table, should I be happy to go in preflop with solid hands when I have a high expectation of playing vs. 3 or more hands? It's just so wierd compared to Holdem when I know what's good for me and what's not. (For example I know I don't want to go allin with AQ vs. 3 players preflop, even though AQ is a nice hand to play). The other night I went with double suited KK99 vs. I think 4 players, 3 of us allin pre, other 2 very deep. I felt like it was a good move, but I'm not sure. Another I went with was KQJT or KQJ9 with one suit vs. 3 - these guys kept going with big pair hands and I figured I had a good shot at making a strt/flush vs. their sets.
I know that theoretically you can say that more people just means a bigger pot when you win, don't worry when you lose, but I guess I wonder what kind of standards you need going against so many hands, knowing they are all or mostly all going to the showdown.
I know some of this would become a non-issue if I switched to 6max, but it seems the conscensus on these boards is that full ring is softer. And ummm... softer is fine with me 'til I really learn what the heck I'm doin.
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
__________________________________________________ _____________
"What we do in life echoes in eternity."
Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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run some numbers. soemtimes you'll get it in bad, like you have QJT9 and one has KQJT and your suits are dead, but mostly if you avoid bad hands with a pair in them you are going to be OK in the 5 way shove fests.
ProPokerTools.com - Serious tools for serious players
as long as you are 3 betting good AAxx (double suited or suit + connected) plus ds rundowns and good BW run downs it's fine. If the money can go in on the flop either way, you may be better off not 3 betting. but for sure keep raising those kinds of hands if you are getting 8 calls, that's a great thing. Unless you know someone else will do it for you.
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Start reading a lot, or watching videos, or something
Hwang's big play book gives a good analysis of starting hands.
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(='.'=)
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Kijjo
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
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Ok, so tonight I was about to sit down with a new vision - play like a shortstack - even buy in short and raise much more often and get it in quick when I've got good draws.
Well, the poker gods dealt me a wild card - my usual tables of full ring were in the toilet - only one table and it had 3 guys sitting at it!
So I grab my nads and go visit 6max.
Holy crap.
That's all I can say. It's a totally different game!
Now I see why you guys seem so aggressive - I had guys donating me chips left and right! I bought in short at the shorties tables just to maximize the shortiness of it - to force myself to get it in hard and fast. I lost the first couple, but crap, you can build a nice stack pretty fast!

I got it allin 10 times in probably 100-125 hands. Each time, if it was really really obvious if I was behind or ahead I wrote it down. Of those, 5 times way ahead and only twice way behind. The other 3 I'd have to run through the simulator.
Ok, so tonight's hand - I'm posting this one because here's a spot where full ring with lots of players in, I would have probably called the $2.10 pre and waited to see what happened on the flop. I feel uneasy when I'm basically counting on AA cause the other two are total crap.
Hand #3
PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($5)
CO ($7.75)
Button ($2.65)
SB ($30.85)
BB ($5.50)
Hero (UTG) ($4.40)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with A , A , 10 , 3
Hero bets $0.35, 1 fold, CO calls $0.35, Button calls $0.35, SB calls $0.30, BB raises to $2.10, Hero raises to $4.40 (All-In), 1 fold, Button calls $2.30 (All-In), 1 fold, BB calls $2.30
Flop: ($12.15) J , Q , 6 (3 players, 2 all-in)
Turn: ($12.15) Q (3 players, 2 all-in)
River: ($12.15) 5 (3 players, 2 all-in)
Total pot: $12.15 | Rake: $0.60
Just because it's more fun to know, wanna know their hands? [Th As Tc 2d] and [4c 7h 6c Td] - all I can say is weeeeeeeeeee....
Thx for the help so far guys. I'm sure I'll be needing much more.
Let me just say in case you're wondering -
I STILL SUCK AT OMAHA.
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
__________________________________________________ _____________
"What we do in life echoes in eternity."
Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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that's the exact type of AAxx hand and situation where I'd look to limp/rr PF
limping UTG, allow other players to limp behind, get someone to isolate, then you can re-pot and generally get in heads-up or 3-handed and get like 50%+ of your stack in PF. People don't 3bet all that much and our hand doesn't play well in a 5-way single-raised pot so my goal would be to limp/rr. In middle/late position I'd just make a standard opening raise.
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Kijjo
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
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Ok, so should have probably limped instead of raising utg, looking to re-raise. Gotcha.
If I had a stronger AA, like AAJsTs or double suited, you think raise utg instead?
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
__________________________________________________ _____________
"What we do in life echoes in eternity."
Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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correct, that hand plays much better in a multiway pot, it has a lot of nut potential and will flop draws that dominate other hands
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,601
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4c7h6cTd has almost 45% equity in pot, HU vs just you 42%
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Kijjo
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
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really, man that's sick - Omaha sure is a different animal.
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
__________________________________________________ _____________
"What we do in life echoes in eternity."
Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
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Kijjo
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
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Ok, so 2 reasons for posting this. #1 to prove I can learn, #2 to test the hand converter from weak tight - little easier on the eyes.
$0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
PokerStars
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG Hero ($2.95)
UTG+1 mailburner ($4.75)
CO magnat69 ($4)
BTN Zulte ($4.75)
SB brwnpprbag$$ ($4.15)
BB isokiva ($5.05)
Pre-Flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is UTG 
Hero calls $0.10, mailburner calls $0.10, 1 fold, Zulte calls $0.10, brwnpprbag$$ raises to $0.60, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.10, mailburner folds, Zulte calls $2, brwnpprbag$$ goes all-in $4.15, Hero goes all-in $0.85, Zulte calls $2.05
Flop: ($11.45, 3 players, 2 all-in)
Turn: ($11.45, 3 players, 2 all-in)
River: ($11.45, 3 players, 2 all-in)
Final Pot: $11.45
Zulte shows two pair, Kings and Jacks

brwnpprbag$$ shows two pair, Aces and Eights

Hero shows two pair, Aces and Eights

brwnpprbag$$ wins $6.60 (net +$2.45)
mailburner lost $0.10
Zulte lost $4.15
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
__________________________________________________ _____________
"What we do in life echoes in eternity."
Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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#3, did you simulate this?
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(='.'=)
(")_(")
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Kijjo
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
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I did now. And?
Doc already pointed out that 476T had almost 45% equite preflop.
I was surprised to see that the other guy only had 4% - pretty amazing, but I guess he doesn't have a suit, his overpair is outmatched meaning he's got to hit a straight since we've got his other tens for a set. Still amazing that he could have only 4%.
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
__________________________________________________ _____________
"What we do in life echoes in eternity."
Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
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swiggidy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Waiting in the shadows ...
Posts: 3,777
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Your last hand
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(='.'=)
(")_(")
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Kijjo
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 554
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Wow, didn't realize the K hand would be such a big favorite. I knew the other guy and I screw each other's equity because of the A's, but I guess we also block each other's flush and straight options quite a bit.
If I'm just against him, it's 55/45, or 56/44 vs. the other guy heads up.
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Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
__________________________________________________ _____________
"What we do in life echoes in eternity."
Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator
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