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10 things i dislike about stoxpoker

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DrivingDog

02-19-2009, 09:48 AM Post subject: 10 things i dislike about stoxpoker

#1 (permalink)

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(Sorry if this belongs in another forum - wasn't sure where to put it).

I gave up my membership on this site because i just couldn't take it anymore. Here's why:

1) Leatherass' blogs. As soon as you go to the website, you're met with another blog by the biggest whiner in poker history. "Boohoo i only made $1m last year. Boohoo I never win a coin flip. Boohoo I run bad. Boohoo my wife made me go to the opera." FFS - someone get this guy a prozac or a shirt that says 'Eeyore' on it or something. At least move his blogs off the front page of the site so it's not the first thing people see when they go there.

2) According to the members, every video is the 'best ever'. Ok, a lot of the videos are pretty good (but see below), but really who are these guys who keep gushing over every video? Probably the same ones who still haven't learned the hand rankings.

3) After you've seen one video by a member, you pretty much know his game. So why keep paying to see more?

4) Doughnutz. Ok, he seems like a good guy, but how (if?) he makes money is beyond me. He makes horrible fishy plays like calling the flop in a multiway pot with a bd draw and nothing else. He says 'i got three to a straight, i'll stay in'. He also makes spewy plays like 3betting every hand he defends out of the BB. I mean WTF?

5) The ass-licking members give the coaches. Yeah they're good players, they KNOW that. You don't have to keep telling them over and over. Sometimes I wonder if some of these members are actually masturbating while they watch the videos. Maybe there should be a separate site for all the hero worship, because it's a bit pathetic imo, and not really conducive to creating productive discussions about poker. The whole culture of omniscient gold-plated coaches and kowtowing groupie members doesn't make for a good learning atmosphere.

6) Some of the coaches are apparently flawless players. As soon as someone questions one of their plays, they get all huffy and defensive (not all of them but at least some of them). Stox himself (who otherwise seems like a nice guy) got all sniffy once because someone called one of Doughnutz' plays 'disgusting'. Hey, if you're that good you can stand up to a little criticism. And you're being paid to pass on your wisdom. Just saying 'It's a good play because I do it' doesn't count as passing on wisdom.

7) The coaches run like god in almost every video. Yeah when I hit every hand I make a nice profit too. Srsly, show us how you play when you get rivered six times in a row and people start taking pops at you with atc. Show us how you adjust to the maniac who's hitting his T2. Show us how you adjust when you run bad.

8) The coaching fees. After I won a member's video game, Reese (who's otherwise a nice guy) offered to coach me for half his usual fee, which was apparently a bargain at $50. Why would i want to pay $50 for an hour of coaching when I can have a membership to the entire site and watch every LHE video he and everyone else ever made as many times as i wanted for two months for less money? Thanks but no thanks.

9) The forums. Pretty much dead as far as limit is concerned. I see a lot more interesting discussions here (or 2+2 for that matter) for free!

10) Membership fees. Ok $20 isn't a LOT of money a month but what am I really getting for it? Apart from the videos, nothing really (or at least nothing I can use). And i can just get a 1 month membership once a year and download all the videos I want to watch then.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

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asdpikas

02-19-2009, 01:40 PM

#2 (permalink)

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hmmm... I hear ya, but i cant complain myself too much since...

-i've never payed for my subscription, man
-I don't like their forums so i hardly ever post there, issue solved
-I understand how doughnutz plays, altho i dont share it and couldnt emulate it. But he gets away with things others couldnt because of EXTREME hand reading.
-Who looks at the blogs??? I just click away to go to the videos! LOL

Anyways, i have 99% of the LHE vids downloaded on my pc, so i dont even visit the site much.

Meaning, that site is awsome only cause of the vids which, imo, are top notch. I also have free membership at Cardrunners (average vids) and downloaded all pokersavvy vids in a free trial day (so bad its not even funny).

"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
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When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.

Lance

02-19-2009, 06:59 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2007

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It should be sticked

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe" (Albert Einstein)

KoRnholio

02-19-2009, 09:18 PM

#4 (permalink)

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KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

I am skeptical of any of these video sites. From the few I have seen here and there, it seems like a big time investment to watch them. And the return seems rather poor. I'd rather re-read one of the poker bibles (HOH 1, HOH2, Stox LHE book, Ciaffone's FR LHE book, etc) as I find I get much more out of that.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

LuckySlevin

02-19-2009, 09:49 PM

#5 (permalink)

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I enjoyed reading this, the one thing I'd say about coaching vs the subscription of the video sites though is it's a bit like comparing apples with oranges, what you get from a year of watching videos you might get in a couple of sessions of being coached, or at least that what i've found with sports coaching in the past!

lefty the llama

03-10-2009, 10:59 PM

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2009

Posts: 4

There's a market for telling players that if you watch a video, then you will be sick at poker.

It's bad marketing to admit that your coaches' plays are weak at times (like any other mortal), and likewise bad to show videos of your coaches getting their asses handed to them by variance (or by their own asses on tilt).

Of course these video sites suck. Their intention is not to help you, it is to make $$$.

kmind

03-10-2009, 11:15 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Are you talking about mainly just the limit part of the website or in general? Some NL videos I enjoyed a lot. I'm not saying I love the site or anything, trust me. In fact, the people who respond to HH in the forums there were so life tilting bad that I stopped going to the whole site for awhile.

But anyways, about the $50 private coaching thing - I don't know that coach but private coaching is a shitload better than watching videos.

DrivingDog

03-11-2009, 12:16 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Some of the NL videos are good, and so are some of the non-holdem videos. It's just the sum of all the things I mentioned that makes me feel i can't support this site.

I don't know that private coaching would be that much better than watching the same guy's videos. I mean he's going to get into the same spots as you and if you want to emulate him then do what he does. If he's more successful than you and is consistently doing something different than what you would do, then you've probably identified a leak.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

Chopper

03-11-2009, 06:47 PM

#9 (permalink)

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#2 happens all the time at one of FTR's "sponsored sites."
#5 happens at FTR all the time in the "high stakes" sub-forum. #6 happens in the beginner's forum......and all the time at 2p2.

regarding #7 and #8, i liken it to golf lessons. would you pay to take lessons from a guy that cant shoot 100? or, if the only time you saw him hit balls, he had a case of the shanks? lol@coaching, but if you can get money w/o playing cards, why not try? seems a lot lower risk.

ok, all joking aside, the site is pretty good, imo, actually. i like the vids. and, that is about all i go there for. there are tons of vid sites, forums, etc. and, some have great members/products and some have shitty ones. you pay your fee, or look for free, and keep returning if you keep getting something out of it. if you stop getting return for your "investment," you simply stop going back.

as for vids, the drunken vid here on FTR is BY FAR the funniest vid i've ever seen. and, it was free.

i have two pairs.......FUUUUUCK YOOOOOOOOU. oh sheeeet, you are from Canada? i RAIIIIIIIZE your shit.

too funny.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

asdpikas

03-11-2009, 07:00 PM

#10 (permalink)

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I personally must say...

You have to give it to Stox.

I wouldn't be a decent winning player without his book (the absolute nuts) and his vids (some better than others, granted, but very good overall, imo).

Again, i must say i've never paid for any site and probably never will.

I dont think they make their money from ppl paying, tho. Very few ppl actually pay. They get most income from referrals and partner sites that give subscriptions to ppl as promotions.

"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.

asdpikas

03-11-2009, 07:13 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

I don't know that private coaching would be that much better than watching the same guy's videos. I mean he's going to get into the same spots as you and if you want to emulate him then do what he does. If he's more successful than you and is consistently doing something different than what you would do, then you've probably identified a leak.

as you once told me... emulating stox is feasible for good players (his style is not too wicked), emulating doughnutz or the Bryce is quite impossible (their styles/ways of thinking are off the roof EVIL). Styles make the difference. You should still get a lot from all their vids, most of the learning is in the explanations of why they take one line or the other. I guess a good coach would have more time to get deeper into the explanations than they do narrating while playing (i've never been coached tho).

elipsesjeff

03-12-2009, 12:04 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Well, I would move this if I could move it where it belongs: the Stox Poker Forums.

Since I've been on both sides of these critics let give my thoughts:

1) This seems just like a semi idea about what a blog is, especially one about a poker player. It might be on the front page because a ton of people love it and it brings in a ton of traffic. Poker players who haven't been around the game for too long love to read that kind of shit.

2) This isn't really a critic on the site as much as the players that subscribe there?

3) There is so much information in poker that its nearly impossible to put everything I know into a 60 min video. But in all honesty if you feel like you're not learning anything then you should definitely not subscribe.

5) Again is this a critic on the site or on the members that subscribe there?

6) Yeah, even coaches make mistakes and marginal plays that are hard to explain. I usually admit when I'm wrong but I've been known to hang on to some questionable plays because I seriously thought I was right. Sometimes I wish I was better at explaining why we do some of the things but short of going through a mathematical proof that would take 3 hours to argue the merits of raising AJ UTG.... and then not be listened to... sometimes its just better to ignore it and move on.

7) Coaches running well could be something of their own doing. They may record several videos and only release the ones where they do well and win money. I think its kinda fun to run bad in a video but maybe if I had more time I could just record 5 hours/week and cherry pick the best one.

8) It seems 1/3 of your argument against Stox has been just against the coaches which should really just be argument about training sites in general. $50/hour for anyone over 'midstakes' at whatever limit you choose seems like an excellent rate, in fact that's a really good rate for any coach. Have you ever had a coach? If yes, was he really that good? I've continue to give and get a lot of coaching as its a ton more beneficial to me than watching videos.

9) I think this is an argument against poker in general right now; LHE traffic everywhere is way down and its hard to just intentionally feign interest to build traffic in a game that is probably as popular as PLO (although that is pure speculation).

10) $20 is actually pretty cheap compared to other training sites. Its still 2x as much as Grinderschool but then again we target completely different markets. If I were to spend $250 on either videos a year or coaching, I think I'd rather invest that into good coaching.

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

DrivingDog

03-13-2009, 02:09 AM

#13 (permalink)

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I don't see what's inappropriate about talking about other sites here. You advertise your site on your signature, is that inappropriate?

People here are interested in poker, they might want to hear what someone thinks of a training site. If not, well no harm done imo.

1) According to the forums, people don't love it. They hate it. In fact, they have plans to take the blogs off the front page because so many people complain.

2, 5) Yes and no. On the one hand, it's not their fault their members are mostly acting like teenage girls at a Robbie Williams concert. On the other, they don't actually do anything to encourage intelligent discussion. True, a fair portion of the clientele are on a different level altogether, so maybe that's the reason why.

6) Just admitting they MAY have made a mistake or not thought something through in the heat of the moment would be enough. What annoys me is not when they can't be bothered to explain things in minute detail to someone who will never grasp it anyways, it's that they ignore all the other people who WOULD benefit from something a little more useful than 'standard', especially when it's clear they just plain fucked up.

7) Either that or these guys are all 10BB/100 winners.

8) The ROI on coaching I'm guessing follows an exponential decay. Very bad players get the most out of it. LIke when you start out and read SSLHE you probably improve %500. The closer you get to the coach's skill level the less you get out of his tutelage because the differences between your and his thought processes are more often a matter of style and not hugely important to your bottom line. So you are paying more and more for better coaches and learning less and less.

Really what it boils down to is if i wanted to make a living at poker or become the next great thing i might consider getting a coach for a short time. But for me it's just a nice hobby that happens to provide about 40% of my income.

9) Not sure where you get this idea from. If you take the number of tables running at stars as any indication, LHE is a fairly close second to NL in popularity and probably as popular as all the other non-NL games put together.

10) Given that i can access all of Stox's videos once a year for $20 i think that's a better investment than getting the equivalent $20 value of 12 minutes of coaching at $100/hr.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

Fnord

03-13-2009, 02:54 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

9) I think this is an argument against poker in general right now; LHE traffic everywhere is way down and its hard to just intentionally feign interest to build traffic in a game that is probably as popular as PLO (although that is pure speculation).

rake vs skill drives this. Too much money goes into the "box" to sustain medicore players so you're left with suckers being wrecked by goodish players. Same problem with Sit'n'Gos. Drop the rake in half and 6-max LHE would pick up a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

03-13-2009, 12:25 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

I don't see what's inappropriate about talking about other sites here. You advertise your site on your signature, is that inappropriate?

People here are interested in poker, they might want to hear what someone thinks of a training site. If not, well no harm done imo.

Maybe you got my intentions wrong, its not that I don't think we should talk about it here but what I meant was if you wanted these things to be fixed you should post them over there. By working so actively for GS, I've come to realize that if only people were more honest to our faces the problems would be known and eventually fixed. We're a service provider and we're in it to make the clientele happy and unless one of their admins googled '10 things I hate about stox' then they'll never know this stuff.

Quote:

1) According to the forums, people don't love it. They hate it. In fact, they have plans to take the blogs off the front page because so many people complain.

That's good then. You also have to keep in mind that they are in massive competition with a dozen other video sites and probably have to try several things to see what entices new members to sign up the most. This is actually pretty hard

Quote:

2, 5) Yes and no. On the one hand, it's not their fault their members are mostly acting like teenage girls at a Robbie Williams concert. On the other, they don't actually do anything to encourage intelligent discussion. True, a fair portion of the clientele are on a different level altogether, so maybe that's the reason why.

This is probably true of the internet in general right? I mean how many comments have you read on any blog/article that wasn't retarded? I'd have to say the majority of pros that subscribe to Stox don't ask questions on their forums and probably don't answer questions either.

Quote:

8) The ROI on coaching I'm guessing follows an exponential decay. Very bad players get the most out of it. LIke when you start out and read SSLHE you probably improve %500. The closer you get to the coach's skill level the less you get out of his tutelage because the differences between your and his thought processes are more often a matter of style and not hugely important to your bottom line. So you are paying more and more for better coaches and learning less and less.

I think you're confusing ROI with % Improvement. If you're at 200 NL and spend $500 on coaching, you could potentially win that back in like a week. If you're at $50 NL and spend the same amount it might take you longer to recoup your expenses but it will probably increase your lifetime winrate enough that it should matter.

I also prefer to coaching thinking players more because its easier to explain to them why their math is wrong or the benefits of a certain scenario without have to explain 'why to raise preflop.' Also, thinking players are more likely to get less out of videos and if you hire the right coach then it should be more beneficial to you in the long run. That is why I discourage anyone from an up front long-term coaching contract from someone you've never had coaching before from.

Quote:

9) Not sure where you get this idea from. If you take the number of tables running at stars as any indication, LHE is a fairly close second to NL in popularity and probably as popular as all the other non-NL games put together.

My argument was for forum traffic not necessarily site traffic. Fnord did a much better job explaining it than I could.

Quote:

10) Given that i can access all of Stox's videos once a year for $20 i think that's a better investment than getting the equivalent $20 value of 12 minutes of coaching at $100/hr.

Well, you've also got to think about how much time its going to take you to watch all those videos. If your hourly rate is $50/hour and it takes you 10 hours of video watching what you could get out of 2 hours of coaching for $100/hr then you could argue its more +EV to do the coaching. But this is all subjective and it depends on your own skill level.

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

DrivingDog

03-13-2009, 12:44 PM

#16 (permalink)

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I hear ya. Coaching is probably a good investment for a lot of people, and might even be one for me too.

Part of it is probably that I'm a very independent person and like to figure things out on my own. I get more satisfaction out of it that way, if that makes any sense.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

DrivingDog

03-13-2009, 11:24 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Never really thought of this but SNG's charge 10% rake, which is at least 2x any ring game. That is really ridiculous....

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

KoRnholio

03-13-2009, 11:43 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Never really thought of this but SNG's charge 10% rake, which is at least 2x any ring game. That is really ridiculous....

True, but it is 10% once rather than 5% endlessly. You'd have to compare win rates and see how many ring game hands vs 1 sng it takes to earn the same amount.

I will try to work it out.. Let's say you are a 2ptbb($4)/100 winner at 1/2 LHE (full ring) or a 15% ROI player at $10+1 sngs (both are quite respectable win rates).

So to win that same $1.50 at 1/2 would take 37.5 hands. Digging into my PT database shows an average personal rake paid of $0.0351 per hand at 1/2 LHE FR. That's $1.32 rake per 37.5 hands.

You could also factor in win rates in hourly terms, which might change things again. The average non-turbo sng played is probably a little longer then the 30-45 minutes it takes to get 37.5 hands played in a limit cash game. But this gets quite difficult, as Chopper and I know in our attempts to figure out if turbo or non-turbo double or nothing sngs are better...

Edit- Seat selection is also a huge factor in cash games that is nearly non-existant in sngs.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

DrivingDog

03-13-2009, 11:55 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Sorry Korn but not sure I follow your logic here:

You're paying 5% rake on every hand at a ring game.

You're paying 10% rake on the buy-in at a SNG.

My intuition is that it's irrelevant whether you pay rake every hand in an open system where you can win or lose an infinite amount or pay rake once in a closed system where your potential wins and losses are limited to your buy in at the lower limit and 1st place at the higher limit.

In the end you either make more than the rake or less, and it's gotta be easier to make more the lower the rake is.

If I'm seeing it wrong let me know.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

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