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10 confessions. Have I sinned? If so, how badly, and why?
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RiverMonkey
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02-22-2005, 01:02 AM
Post subject: 10 confessions. Have I sinned? If so, how badly, and why?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Are these bad habits? If so, how bad are they, and why?
I'd also be interested in knowing if some of the solid FTR limit players have any of these 'habits' in common, or did have them at one point but found ways to repent for their sins.
Please keep in mind that in the games I play in there tends to almost always be 5 or more players seeing the flop even when they have to cold call two bets (I'm not one of those (usually  )).
1. I've gotten into the habit of not actually counting bets to determine pot size when playing B&M limit. Instead, I just "judge" whether the pot is large enough to chase certain draws .... e.g. open-enders, gut-shots, flush draws (bad example since its almost always correct to chase a 4-flush to the river with pots of even modest size), one ace where there are three to that suit on the board. I simply ask the "Is the pot big enough to chase this draw, and if hit my hand is it likely to be best" type question rather than actually counting my outs, determining my pot odds, and doing the [pot odds]*[ clean outs] calculation and comparing that to the number of cards to come less my clean outs.
2. Related to #1 above. I have not been religously counting my outs .... I do recognize how having back-door draws and re-draws add value/strength to my hand when I'm sitting on TPT(G)K and two-pair type hands etc. Instead of trying to accurately assess my outs (I do have a recognition for hidden and tainted outs), I've been focusing on improving my hand & board reading skills and using that plus my awareness of rough pot size to determine how to play my hands. It seems to me that this is how most good limit B&M players play ..... Am I giving up any edge by not doing this ... because I could easily do it if I was willing to (i) take more time for each decision I make and (ii) force myself to count bets.
3. Not raising pre-flop in certain situations where I probably should. You know, sometimes ignoring the old adage 'if it's good enough to play, you might as well come in raising'. (btw, I'm not a fan of poker adages because they are either often plain wrong, or don't convey the subtleties involved). Anyways, my point being that I tend to only raise pre-flop from EP to reduce the field, or from LP when I'm opening the pot ..... I do however, 3-bet and cap when I feel that I should be capitalizing on pot-equity edge/want to build a big pot.
example: I'm in LP when there are lots of limpers in front of me and I'm holding AK or another off-suit/high card hands and telling myself 'what's the point in raising here, I'm not going to knock anyone out'. Note that I am pretty good at raising these hands from EP because I feel that it has the benefit of preventing limpers coming in from later positions. I'm also pretty good about raising with suited cards (not low-suited connectors though). (I'M NOT INCLUDING AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT here ... I always raise with these hands from all positions. If I thought my opponents were aware enough that this predictability would hurt me, I'd vary it up, but they just aren't that aware!).
4. Free card/free showdown plays ...... I feel that I don't use this play enough when I'm on a good draw. I use it occasionally, but I find that it rarely gets checked around on the next street so that I can check behind. Any situational tips on how to judge the probability of a free card play working?
5. I tend to not call people down unless I feel that they are running a bluff and/or I'm not sure whether I'm best or not and/or the pot is really big and a bad fold would be a huge mistake. I don't see the value in playing the role of keeping other players honest unless there's some possible profit in THAT hand for ME. Sometime I just know if my gut that someone if just full of it, but I don't bother calling them down unless I think the pot size justifies my risk.
6. Taking advantage of my position in certain situations. I see other players make blatant position based bets or raises all the time, and I don't tend to do it as much. This goes along with running bluffs when I have good position and a scare card comes on the board... I do it , but rarely .... I feel that in the games I play in, there's enough loose, habitual caller type players that it will rarely work.
7. I probably should do more raising when I have a solid draw to the nut flush or nut-str8. I sometimes tend to play it safe and call bets until I hit, but I do know that if I have a pot equity edge I should be pumping her up. This habit is born of thinking short term instead of thinking (even though I'm aware of it on an intellectual level) about EV maximization.
8. Check-raising - I don't use it all that often - partially goes along with #4 above. I understand the role this play is supposed to have re: protecting your hand and I try to use it in those situation where I feel it will, but I rarely ever use it to help build a pot/trap players and I probably should try to seek out more opportunities to do it more.
9. Slow-playing/letting others bet and just smooth call when I have a monster hands that I flop ..... I've been working on this one lately, and I can really see how I'll earn extra bets over the long run if I become good and selecting when to run this play.
10. Being the aggressor on the flop, turn & river with TPT(G)K hand and with a pretty safe board, only to be called down by a two-pair hand, or one with a slightly better kicker. My inclination is to assume that this one is unavoidable and goes with the territory of being TAGG. I must also admit that I sometimes don't value-bet on the river for this very reason only to find out that I was best.
Edited #1 again because ..... well, I'm a dumb-ass sometimes.
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JJDylan
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 211
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i have about half of these habits :P
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koolmoe
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02-22-2005, 04:06 AM
Post subject: Re: 10 confessions. Have I sinned? If so, how badly, and why
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#3 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
1. I've gotten into the habit of not actually counting bets to determine pot size when playing B&M limit. Instead, I just "judge" whether the pot is large enough to chase certain draws .... e.g. open-enders, gut-shots, flush draws (bad example since its almost always correct to chase a 4-flush to the river with pots of even modest size), one ace where there are three to that suit on the board. I simply ask the "Is the pot big enough to chase this draw, and if hit my hand is it likely to be best" type question rather than actually counting my outs, determining my pot odds, and doing the [pot odds plus one]*[outs] calculation and comparing that to the number of cards to come.
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Where I play live, the dealers always announce how many players there are to the flop, so just knowing how many bets went in per player gets you very close to the pot size. I'm rarely counting the pot anymore, just waiting for "6 players" and knowing it was raised preflop tells you there are about 12 SB/6 BB in the pot. After that I count, but usually there's no point. You often have odds to call all but the weakest draw.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
8. Check-raising - I don't use it all that often - partially goes along with #4 above. I understand the role this play is supposed to have re: protecting your hand and I try to use it in those situation where I feel it will, but I rarely ever use it to help build a pot/trap players and I probably should try to seek out more opportunities to do it more.
9. Slow-playing/letting others bet and just smooth call when I have a monster hands that I flop ..... I've been working on this one lately, and I can really see how I'll earn extra bets over the long run if I become good and selecting when to run this play.
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Most players are so passive that check raising is impossible. I've seen players check behind Aces up on an uncoordinated board. Too often they are hoping for a free card. Don't give it unless you cannot be beaten easily.
Slowplaying is just asking to win a small pot in many situations.
I should note that I often play the lowest limits (4/8) live, as there is rarely a larger game immediately available.
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RiverMonkey
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02-22-2005, 04:59 PM
Post subject: Re: 10 confessions. Have I sinned? If so, how badly, and why
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#4 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
Are these bad habits? If so, how bad are they, and why?
3. Not raising pre-flop in certain situations where I probably should. You know, sometimes ignoring the old adage 'if it's good enough to play, you might as well come in raising'. (btw, I'm not a fan of poker adages because they are either often plain wrong, or don't convey the subtleties involved). Anyways, my point being that I tend to only raise pre-flop from EP to reduce the field, or from LP when I'm opening the pot ..... I do however, 3-bet and cap when I feel that I should be capitalizing on pot-equity edge/want to build a big pot.
example: I'm in LP when there are lots of limpers in front of me and I'm holding AK or another off-suit/high card hands and telling myself 'what's the point in raising here, I'm not going to knock anyone out'. Note that I am pretty good at raising these hands from EP because I feel that it has the benefit of preventing limpers coming in from later positions. I'm also pretty good about raising with suited cards (not low-suited connectors though). (I'M NOT INCLUDING AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT here ... I always raise with these hands from all positions. If I thought my opponents were aware enough that this predictability would hurt me, I'd vary it up, but they just aren't that aware!).
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See today's Cardplayer.com Hand Quiz below. Not raising with AK from the BB is incorrect against limpers. So, by extension, I have to assume that not raising with AK from LP against limpers is also a sin since you'll have good to decent position for the rest of the hand.
And lastly, please, any advice related to my original post would be greatly appreciated. As always thanks!
Question (you are in the big blind)
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You hold A-K. Two early players, two middle players, and the button limp. The small blind folds. What do you do?
Answer
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Raise. You almost surely have the best playing hand when no one raises. You will flop top pair, top kicker or better about one third of the time. Another five percent of the time you will flop some kind of draw like a gutshot straight draw or a flush draw. For one extra bet, you pull into the pot another five bets, and you have a better chance than anyone else of ending up with the best hand. If the flop misses you completely, you can check and fold in many cases, since there are too many opponents to try a bluff. One raises to build a bigger pot holding the best hand; the fact that you can't eliminate anyone should not deter you from sweetening the pot.
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Chicago_Kid
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02-22-2005, 06:06 PM
Post subject: Re: 10 confessions. Have I sinned? If so, how badly, and why
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#5 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Great post. You apparently have good self-awareness. I hope Fnord chimes in on a couple of these...
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
1. I've gotten into the habit of not actually counting bets to determine pot size when playing B&M limit. Instead, I just "judge"
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I do this...I'm not rainman but I've developed pretty good feel for pot size. Also, sometimes I just stay away from borderline draws with people to follow.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
2. I have not been religously counting my outs...I've been focusing on improving my hand & board reading skills and using that plus my awareness of rough pot size to determine how to play my hands.
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I think this is good. Also, I typically don't want to look all academic and serious at the table, so the judgement plays better that way, too. Sounds like your feel is good and reads might give you more info.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
[i]example: I'm in LP when there are lots of limpers in front of me and I'm holding AK or another off-suit/high card hands and telling myself 'what's the point in raising here, I'm not going to knock anyone out'.
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IMO, I think this is a mistake. Depending on the table dynamics, I raise/re-raise quite often in LP to get button, protect my hand, and see where I am. I think Hyper said in another post that "If you don't raise wth AK, what are you going to raise with", meaning it's one of the top 5 hands. However, I'll accept a bitch-slap from Fnord or others if they prove this -EV with some math.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
4. Free card/free showdown plays Any situational tips on how to judge the probability of a free card play working?
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Do you mean checkraise to get the next street for free? This is hard in very loose/low, low limit games. I agree, I rarely get away with this playing 2/4 or 3/6.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
5. I tend to not call people down unless I feel that they are running a bluff and/or I'm not sure whether I'm best or not and/or the pot is really big and a bad fold would be a huge mistake?
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Makes sense to me.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
6. Taking advantage of my position in certain situations. I see other players make blatant position based bets or raises all the time, and I don't tend to do it as much. This goes along with running bluffs when I have good position and a scare card comes on the board... I do it , but rarely .... I feel that in the games I play in, there's enough loose, habitual caller type players that it will rarely work.
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In low limit, I rarely try a bluff unless it shorthanded and I'm pretty sure I'll get away with it.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
7. I probably should do more raising when I have a solid draw to the nut flush or nut-str8. I sometimes tend to play it safe and call bets until I hit.
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I go back and forth on this.  I imagine some higher-level experts would say this is a big mistake.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
8. Check-raising - I don't use it all that often - partially goes along with #4 above.
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I use it to keep people off balance and protect my hand. But I mix it up sometimes to build a pot in L/MP.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
9. Slow-playing/letting others bet and just smooth call when I have a monster hands that I flop ....
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I will SP on a rainbow flop with trips or str8, then depending on the action, I will raise on the turn. If raised in front of me, and I'm probably still ahead, I will just play along.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
10. Being the aggressor on the flop, turn & river with TPT(G)K hand and with a pretty safe board
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I think this is ok. I experience this a lot with some schmoe hitting 2nd pr on the river. Nothing you can do...you've got to bet for value until you encounter resistance. I hate letting up on this and (1) giving a free card or (2) having someone bet back at you--then where are you??? I think you win more $$ from some guy calling down 2nd pr. In online play I watch my Aggression Factors carefully to remind myself to value bet, as I sometimes slip into passive mode on the river.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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the free card play should work great in live games with so many loose passives. whenever you have a draw in late position, use it, with few exceptions.
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RiverMonkey
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02-22-2005, 07:15 PM
Post subject: Re: 10 confessions. Have I sinned? If so, how badly, and why
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#7 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 446
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
Great post. You apparently have good self-awareness. I hope Fnord chimes in on a couple of these...
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Me too .. hint, hint
Not to be greedy (ok maybe it is), but I hope Fnord, Hyper and other limit-gurus chime in on more than a couple and share their thoughts on all of them.
Great responses so far .... This is why I thank the day that I stumbled across FTR ... We have an incredible thing going here. Which is why I've been trying (operative word) to give back as much as I take out.
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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1.I've gotten into the habit of not actually counting bets to determine pot size when playing B&M limit.
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This is easy to do. Count the players and count if there were any raises. It is like an instinct with me now. I always know how much is in the pot.
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2.I have not been religously counting my outs
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This is another thing that comes almost naturally to me. As soon as I see the board, I count up the outs in my mind. Most of them are automatic now, so I never look like I'm actually thinking.
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3.Not raising pre-flop in certain situations where I probably should.
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I raise a lot, this is something I have been working on. My PFR% used to be 8 precent and I now am at 9.3 % and I am finding more spots to raise. I think once I start raising a few more hands out of the blinds I will be where I want. You have to get over your fear of raising. If you are new to the game, it is understandable, but I push my edges every chance I get. This includes raising J10s from late position with lots of limpers in front of me. Ak is a no brainer, just train yourself to raise it.
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4. Free card/free showdown plays ...... I feel that I don't use this play enough when I'm on a good draw
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I use this play more in small pots when I know my opponents wont fold. Against a large field you get value out of betting and raising, so most of the time it is correct not to take the free card. Against a small field, I take the free card if my opponent is an idiot that wont fold, and depending on the player I like to check behind a TAG. The possiblily of a raise is big enough that I think this benifit of a cheap card out weighs betting most of the time. The only problem with this is that a TAG will know you are drawing and bluff you out of some pots.
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5.I tend to not call people down unless I feel that they are running a bluff and/or I'm not sure whether I'm best or not and/or the pot is really big and a bad fold would be a huge mistake.
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If the pot is small, I tend to fold marginal hands. If it is large I tend to bet/raise to protect my hand. Calling people down with AK or the likes is profitable IF you have a read on the player. If not, play the flop aggressive and get out on the turn. Also, dont even think about calling down unless it is HU.
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6. Taking advantage of my position in certain situations.
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Raising to gain position is a good thing. It works in loose games too. Your position help you to find out where you are in a hand. Being last to act is a huge advantage. It wins syou more pots, and it keeps you out of some pots that you would be in from EP.
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7. I probably should do more raising when I have a solid draw to the nut flush or nut-str8.
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This is part of being an aggressive player. Balance is the key. I love it when a player is raising a draw HU or 3 handed on the turn and I get to three bet with two pair or a set. His raise make me money. You have to learn to bet/raise the strong draws(8+ outs). Betting gives you another way of winning, while calling does not. You flush draw comes in 35 percent of the time, say out of 20, you win 7 with the flush and 2 by them folding. You just added 10 percent to your odds. Not to mention the times where you win by spiking a pair.
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8. Check-raising - I don't use it all that often
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A lot of times I will think how can I protect my hand here. A lot of times c/r does that, mostly when you think the bettor will be on your right. You want to c/r to thin the field or to trap people into more bets to build pots. Sometimes you have to take the risk and go for check raises, mainly in smaller pots where you have a big hand. I'll admit though, I like to lead, I very rarely c/r a flop.
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9.Slow-playing/letting others bet and just smooth call when I have a monster hands that I flop
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I harly ever slow play. Most of the time they will call anyway, so why miss out on the extra bets? If they have a pair, they call. If they have a draw, they call. Dont risk a big pot by slowplaying. I see so many people slow play a set only to lose to a backdoor flush/straight. If they bet the flop, it wouldn't be a problem most of the time. Slow playing should be reserved for small pots with tight players.....and lets faces it, we dont play in many games like that.
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10. Being the aggressor on the flop, turn & river with TPT(G)K hand and with a pretty safe board, only to be called down by a two-pair hand, or one with a slightly better kicker.
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It happens, nothing you can do about it.
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ChezJ
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02-22-2005, 11:01 PM
Post subject: Re: 10 confessions. Have I sinned? If so, how badly, and why
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#9 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
1. I just "judge" whether the pot is large enough to chase certain draws
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As someone else said above, you can use the information provided by the dealer to determine the pot size. Do NOT just look at the pile of chips in the middle, as this will change from game to game depending on the denominations of the chips and the stakes. For example, most people use $5 chips in $3/$6 at the Taj, but not at Casino Arizona. So the pots appear deceptively bigger in Arizona, tempting you into loose calls.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
2. I have not been religously counting my outs
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You lose some but not a whole lot of edge. Erring on the side of a fold vs. a call is often safe in a passive game where people just check-check-check until they hit TP or better.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
3. Not raising pre-flop in certain situations where I probably should.
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This is a major hole in your game. The point of raising AK is not to thin the field, it's to fatten your payout when you hit TP or better, which is often. Don't you WANT the guy with AJ in the pot with you when you flop an ace? It also improves your pot odds so you can take a card off for one or even two bets when you miss the flop.
Example: I was BB and decided to be cute and check it blind since nobody raised. Flop came rainbow rags, and when I finally peeked at my hand I was shocked to see KQs, a clear raising hand. Someone bet his rags and I had to fold because the pot was too tiny. Had I raised pre-flop, I might have scared out some ragged limpers, I would have seized initiative in the hand (possibly suppressing loose bets/raises), and the pot would have given me correct odds to see the turn, where I would have hit a backdoor redraw and eventually completed the flush.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
5. I tend to not call people down
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Where in the world does it say that calling someone down just to see their cards is a winning play? That is the hallmark of a fish! You are only supposed to call for one single bet on the river if the pot is enormous and you have a made hand that has a decent chance of winning. You cannot possibly call any bet on any street, bluff or not, if you don't have a hand or a strong draw, unless it's heads up and you have something like AK high, and even then it can be a questionable play.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
6. I see other players make blatant position based bets or raises all the time, and I don't tend to do it as much.
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How do you know they don't have a real raising hand? If you have KQ or AJ in LP and it's folded to you, are you saying you wouldn't raise?
The blind "steal" really should not be attempted very often in low limit holdem, where there is little to be gained (esp with a rake) and one small bet is not a huge threat to the BB. The steal is more of a NL play, particularly in the later stages of a tournament where the blinds are worth stealing.
In limit, you should be raising in LP any time you legitimately believe you have an edge over two people holding random cards. Not to steal, but to exploit your current edge.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
7. I probably should do more raising when I have a solid draw to the nut flush or nut-str8.
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In a giant multiway pot, I find it a no-brainer to bet or raise the flop on the come to the nuts. You're gonna whiff 4 out of 5 times but when you do hit, you'll get paid way, way more than you ever lost.
Raising the turn is different. You have to pause and do the math because with double-sized bets, you don't always have correct odds, and the free card play doesn't apply.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
8. Check-raising - I don't use it all that often
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My experience from this past weeked is that B&M players are incredibly timid and passive. Just because a guy raises pre-flop does not mean you can count on him to bet on a ragged flop. I found this out the hard way when I flopped a nut straight in EP and checked to the raiser, planning to checkraise his ass. Instead he took a free card and someone ended up rivered a flush. I was devastated. Another time, I did checkraise a guy when I flopped trip aces, yet being the dumbass that he was, he assigned no meaning to my powerful move and continued with his pocket 8's to the river.
The lesson here is that betting out from EP is often better than checkraising when up against total dumbasses.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
9. Slow-playing/letting others bet and just smooth call when I have a monster hands that I flop ..... I've been working on this one lately, and I can really see how I'll earn extra bets over the long run if I become good and selecting when to run this play.
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Depending on the table, and the monstrousness of your hand, you may be justified in raising these hands, because truly loose players will still chase to the river regardless of the number of bets. On the river, however, things are different. People either have a hand or they don't, and they aren't paying to chase any more cards. So you definitely want overcalls when you have a monster. Look to your left and count the number of people behind you (who aren't getting ready to chuck their cards). If it is 2 or more, then just call because you can collect 2 more big bets vs just the 1 you'll gain by raising.
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
10. Being the aggressor on the flop, turn & river with TPT(G)K hand and with a pretty safe board, only to be called down by a two-pair hand, or one with a slightly better kicker. My inclination is to assume that this one is unavoidable and goes with the territory of being TAGG. I must also admit that I sometimes don't value-bet on the river for this very reason only to find out that I was best.
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The gains you accumulate from being the aggressor all the way to the river far outweigh the occasional hits you take because someone smoothcalled you all the way with a better hand. Unless they are raising you, or unless you are betting with a truly marginal hand (TP weak kicker, second pair), you should assume your hand is good until proven otherwise.
ChezJ
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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Hi RiverMonkey
First let me say that I enjoy your posts - I always find your contributions insightful. Second, I am not experienced enough to comment on any of your points individually, but if you are open to an observation from a newbie... here goes.
I noticed in some past posts that you were wondering if you were being too aggresive. I inferred that you had (or felt you had) some bad beats from agressive play.
Anyway, the theme I noted in your 10 confessions were that 5 of them were related to not playing aggressively enough, when you thought or felt that you should. These would be items 3,5,6,7 and 10.
Could it be that you are keeping your tight starting requirements, but have become a little gun-shy about the AGG part of TAGG? As I note, I only infer this from your own confessions, of which the central them in 5 is an admitted lack aggression?
If I'm off the mark, please disregard.
PS. In a twisted way, one could even argue that item 9 (your reluctance to slowplay when the situation calls for it) is a lack of aggression. After all it's "safer" (thus weaker and more passive) to keep on betting a made hand for what might be fewer BBs, then it is take a very low percentage chance at a loss when trying to extract some extra BBs through a slowplay. When I'm on a downswing I am less lkely to slowplay cause I am paranoid about "IdiotFish" hitting his "whatever" and taking my pot -again.
When I'm aggresive and confident, I'm less worried about the downside, and thus it's easier to slow play when the time is right.
Keep up the good posts. I always find gems in the stuff that Fnord, ElipsesJeff, Chez, Trikflow, Hyper, Gorilla, you and others post, and I am very appreciative .
(Jeff and Fnord always keep me on my toes, which I appreciate very much - even though I do give Jeff a hard time now and then -lol)
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
Anyway, the theme I noted in your 10 confessions were that 5 of them were related to not playing aggressively enough, when you thought or felt that you should. These would be items 3,5,6,7 and 10.
Could it be that you are keeping your tight starting requirements, but have become a little gun-shy about the AGG part of TAGG? As I note, I only infer this from your own confessions, of which the central them in 5 is an admitted lack aggression?
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For what it's worth, I have gone through the same self-evaluation regarding aggressiveness, given the following evolution in my game: LAP...LAg...TAP...(on my way to pure TAg). Most recently, TAP has been my game. E.g., my river play has been generally weak, and it's been costing me value. This took me a while to realize this.
However, I've really started to say "screw it" and just attack 'em (go TAg!) until I encounter resistance. This has cranked up my BB/100 from b/e to much higher. In low limit games, I'm starting to see how SO MANY people call me down with 2nd pair...even when I'm playing at 15% VPIP...I love it!!
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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jmontis
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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some may disagree, but unless its a mid/higher limit game, i'd do this...
lets say you're in a pot with 7 people, you have TPTK,.... with a flush/straight draw on the board, there is no reason to even bet, too many people see a draw and go "ok time to chase", i'd call to the turn THEN see how the board looks.
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jmontis
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02-24-2005, 07:17 PM
Post subject: Re: 10 confessions. Have I sinned? If so, how badly, and why
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#13 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chicago_Kid
Quote:
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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
7. I probably should do more raising when I have a solid draw to the nut flush or nut-str8. I sometimes tend to play it safe and call bets until I hit.
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I go back and forth on this. I imagine some higher-level experts would say this is a big mistake.
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I play on the same site as Mike Caro, vcpoker, and even in the $50-100 game, if he hits an open ended straight draw/str8flush draw, he'll raise it on the flop pretty much every time.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jmontis
lets say you're in a pot with 7 people, you have TPTK,.... with a flush/straight draw on the board, there is no reason to even bet, too many people see a draw and go "ok time to chase", i'd call to the turn THEN see how the board looks.
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how's this for a reason to bet... the odds are 2:1 AGAINST them hitting their draw. so you stand to win a lot more in those cases where your TP holds up.
i would think this would apply even more at higher stakes where it costs more to chase.
ChezJ
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jmontis
some may disagree, but unless its a mid/higher limit game, i'd do this...
lets say you're in a pot with 7 people, you have TPTK,.... with a flush/straight draw on the board, there is no reason to even bet, too many people see a draw and go "ok time to chase", i'd call to the turn THEN see how the board looks.
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Agree whole-heartedly...perhaps I was too general here. I'm not leading out into a coordinated board with many folks still in...I play the same as you do.
My "bet out" comment refers to turn and river play with few players in. I have fought hard against the temptation to let up when overcards hit...
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Shotfrog
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 42
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jmontis
lets say you're in a pot with 7 people, you have TPTK,.... with a flush/straight draw on the board, there is no reason to even bet, too many people see a draw and go "ok time to chase", i'd call to the turn THEN see how the board looks.
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how's this for a reason to bet... the odds are 2:1 AGAINST them hitting their draw. so you stand to win a lot more in those cases where your TP holds up.
i would think this would apply even more at higher stakes where it costs more to chase.
ChezJ |
Are you saying the odds are 2:1 against any one person hitting his draw, or against anyone at the table hitting his draw? Because 2:1 per person with several people playing is not good odds.
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Winner didn't even know it was a pie-eating contest
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ChezJ
Quote:
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Originally Posted by jmontis
lets say you're in a pot with 7 people, you have TPTK,.... with a flush/straight draw on the board, there is no reason to even bet, too many people see a draw and go "ok time to chase", i'd call to the turn THEN see how the board looks.
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how's this for a reason to bet... the odds are 2:1 AGAINST them hitting their draw. so you stand to win a lot more in those cases where your TP holds up.
i would think this would apply even more at higher stakes where it costs more to chase.
ChezJ |
It depends on your position.
IMHO--I disagree with betting out in EP into a large field with a coordinated board because:
- Depending on the pot size, you will pump the pot and might give odds to callers in MP/LP with gutshots and other draws.
- If late position opens, you can c/r on the way back and knock out MP and LP players that previously checked. This is much scarier than betting out.
- 2:1 odds are good for you, but that's against one opponent. What if two people have 2:1 draws and another has a gut, and a couple have TP or MP? Your building the pot justifies all their calls. Equity falling...
- Unlikely that 7 players will check all the way around to give free card, so the c/r is usually there. Now if MP bets out and it comes back after several callers I will then call, and bet out on turn if blank.
Now if you are in MP/LP I would bet out for sure.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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you are right, it depends on your position. i was going to amend my post right after i re-read it, but you took care of it for me... 
ChezJ
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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BTW--it's all stuff I learned from others here...thanks FTR'ers!
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Latest Poker News
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KoRnholio
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ...
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