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littleogre
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11-04-2006, 06:15 AM
Post subject: 10/9 is raising hand???????
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Just saw a poker vid of a guy playing 5/10 limit. about half way through the vid he gets 10/9 of clubs on the button and says you should always raise 10/9 from the button. Is that valid advice and if so please explain why as that seems a little excessive to me.
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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T9s can very well be a raising hand on the button, depending on:
looseness of the table
your opponents
Number of players in the pot
your image
what you want to accomplish postflop.
for that matter 24o can be a raising hand from the button in the right situation against the right opp. I don't agree with the "always" statement, however. There are times to cold call and times to fold it PF, too....
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Operation Grind For Education:
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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Always? There are very, very few "alway's" in poker. Can you give us a few specifics--any limpers, caliber of opposition, and so on?
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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I'd raise T9s in late position to steal the blinds against tighties, and very rarely to pump up a multiway pot in a loose game.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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Quote:
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I'd raise T9s in late position to steal the blinds against tighties, and very rarely to pump up a multiway pot in a loose game.
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With regard to this, if folded to me I'd raise T9s on the button against anyone, and as the co against a tight, passive button. From mp3 the co and button would have to be tight and bad for me to want to raise.
In the right (passive) field raising in a multiway pot may get you a free card if the flop comes with a gutshot, a fjush or striaght draw, or second pair against 4 or 5 of the right kind of opponents...
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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He was on the button with 2 limpers already in the pot not including the blinds. All in all he sounded laggy as he also said he likes to raise A/4 from the sb. They have a forum so i will try to ask his reasoning but i have nver actually seen the author of the vid on the forums.
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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A couple of other times:
If the table sees you as tight and it's limped to you. You should take the blinds.
As a changeup, with multiple limpers in the pot to build a pot which will be massive if you hit.
T9s gets a pretty good chunk of a lot of draws.
FWIW, I said I don't agree with the "always" part of his statement either....
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Operation Grind For Education:
Current BR: $10080(04/06/2009) BR Goal: $15000--I LOVE RB!!!
End date: 31aug2009
Current stakes: $100/200NL FR
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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Quote:
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He was on the button with 2 limpers already in the pot not including the blinds.
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In all seriousness that's a ridiculous approach to take if we're not also talking about the quality of the players involved. Also, 2 is exactly the wrong number of players to raise against with T9s. You either want a lot of villains in so that when you hit you hit big, or no or one opponent to increase the chances of stealing outright or if your opponent misses the flop. Two opponents increases the chances that someone will hit the flop, improves the odds for the blinds to call, but tends not to make a large enough pot to justify the adverse costs of raising.
Quote:
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All in all he sounded laggy as he also said he likes to raise A/4 from the sb.
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This is pretty moronic stuff on his part--I guess it might work against eight year olds, but raising A4 from the small blind? That's absurd.
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They have a forum so i will try to ask his reasoning but i have nver actually seen the author of the vid on the forums.
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Couldn't hurt, I guess...
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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Definitely not a standard play, but I don't mind a button raise w/ 10/9s against two limpers for a different look, depending upon the limpers and the blinds. Many of the response posts sum up your pro and con reasons.
One other thing to consider is the value of the free card. Most low limit players will check to the raiser, even with a hand. You are essentially raising PF to take a free card on the flop. If you had, say 5 limpers, this would be a better play since most limpers are calling, one pair with your cards is likely not winning anyway, and you can get your free card almost every time if you need it.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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At small stakes, very loose games (would typically be a live game), with say 7 or 8 players average to the flop, I'd definitely want to put in a raise on the button or CO with 6 limpers. Probably with 5 if SB likes to come along for 2. Against 9 random hands, T9s is almost 16% to win, and that's a pretty huge edge. Not hard to play post-flop as you will generally need 2pair or better to win the hand, and the big pot will encourage callers when you flop a huge hand or nice draw. I don't see much value in this raise in limit poker at tighter tables.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xanadu
At small stakes, very loose games (would typically be a live game), with say 7 or 8 players average to the flop, I'd definitely want to put in a raise on the button or CO with 6 limpers. Probably with 5 if SB likes to come along for 2. Against 9 random hands, T9s is almost 16% to win, and that's a pretty huge edge. Not hard to play post-flop as you will generally need 2pair or better to win the hand, and the big pot will encourage callers when you flop a huge hand or nice draw. I don't see much value in this raise in limit poker at tighter tables.
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I understand where you a coming from but 5/10 online doesn't normally play that loose does it?
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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Quote:
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I understand where you a coming from but 5/10 online doesn't normally play that loose does it?
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littleo, .50/$1 doesn't normally play that loose.
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StageWhisper
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 90
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xanadu
At small stakes, very loose games (would typically be a live game), with say 7 or 8 players average to the flop, I'd definitely want to put in a raise on the button or CO with 6 limpers. Probably with 5 if SB likes to come along for 2. Against 9 random hands, T9s is almost 16% to win, and that's a pretty huge edge. Not hard to play post-flop as you will generally need 2pair or better to win the hand, and the big pot will encourage callers when you flop a huge hand or nice draw. I don't see much value in this raise in limit poker at tighter tables.
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This describes my live game perfectly, and I'm going to try this line the next time a good drawing hand comes my way on the button. I'll let you all know the results.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Ok i went back and watched the vid again. I had a few details wrong about the hand. The game was SH and he was indeed the button. When it got to him 1 player had limped in and the blinds we obviously left to act. I left a post on the site asking about the raise and this was his response.
Hi there,
I'm the author of the video.
910s is a much better than average hand... it is probably better than the two random blind hands, and is only 60/40 against AK
basically you are playing two good cards in the best position.... hopefully they fold, but if not, you are in position on that hand.... that hand is far too strong to fold on the button (first in), and limping on the button is absolutely unacceptable if you are first in the pot.
He is for the most part judging by the vid a lag.
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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If it's shorthanded and someone limped you already have a strong clue they're not a strong player, so I can understand wanting to get heads up. I wouldn't want to do it against a tough player who limped ep in full ring, but under the conditions you describe, it's a decent play...
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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I think this can be a very good play at the short table with 1 limper if the limper is passive and loose preflop and passive post flop and the blinds will often fold. It's got to be a good situation with the blinds in the pot if they fold, and the only truly bad result is getting 3-bet and only being 2 or 3 way.
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Perrygarl
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11-15-2006, 07:07 PM
Post subject: 10/9 raising.....hmm?
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#17 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Worthing
Posts: 50
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I do like the idea, I understand why raising is a good move, it is a hand you would waste on the button short handed, particularly with suited, since there are plenty of hands that help you, with good pairs and possible straight and/or flush possibilities. When short handed you can't wait for the good hands. However, you couldn't "always" raise with that hand, firstly your are on the button. Short-handed, your first to play. Raising will sometimes get you the blinds but what if you are flat-called. You are now in a position and you have no idea how you hand is. If you are against a TAG, you know he has high cards at least. If your against a LAG, any flop that doesn't help you is dangerous. The second problem is the situation has given you one chance to win the pot. You have to bet to know where you are. The biggest problem is that in limit hold'em, nine times out of ten you are going to get odds to call. If you are getting 2-1 odds, you could let it go, but 3-1 can be too hard to let go [Yes, I do listen to Dan Harrington too much.]
The majority of times I would call, because a raise from a player would give me information depending on how they play, particularly if the are conservative players on the table. The knowledge that they would play only high cards, as well as high and mid pairs. They are not going to call with these hands regularly as they want
1) Money made from this hand
2) You not to suck out!!
However, you need to vary the play so raising this hand is needed to be done to keep your opponent guessing.
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Mr Inconsistency....that is moi!!!!!
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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Quote:
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910s is a much better than average hand... it is probably better than the two random blind hands, and is only 60/40 against AK
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Well, not really. It's not that much better, and while it's "only" 60/40 against AK, it's also "only" 60/40 against KJ, QJ, or any 2 cards J and above. Further, it's a nightmare against AT, A9, KT, QT, JT... all likely hands for a limper. So, why do we want to isolate a player who will routinely have a better hand or, worse, a hand that dominates us?
The argument about the blinds is also specious. While we're slight favorites against random hands, we aren't going to be playing against random hands, we're going to be playing against better hands, hands that checkraise us, hands that outkick us, hands that 3bet preflop, and so on.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Arki wins. 9ts is purely a steal hand, and you really, really don't want a flop. Its definitely not an isolation hand.
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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<<bows modestly. exuent>>
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