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10-15 blind structure

  
 
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Old 08-29-2005, 04:04 AM     Post subject: 10-15 blind structure #1 (permalink)  
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I usually fold things like J5o or 92o
Usually call with any two suited cards

What about hands like A6o? Do I call in this blind structure? My kicker is probably no good if an ace flops, but if I get aces up or trip sixes I stand to win a big pot. That's 1/6BB to win a (maybe)10BB pot around 3% of the time

There's also the times when a pair of aces is the best hand

Now what about hands like T7o? It's slightly connected, so I might be tempted to play it, but it hits much less often than even A6 and pair of tens is much less often the best hand

Also, what about hands like 34o
it's connected, but it doesn't go down enough to make the nut straight and pairs of threes or fours with no kicker suck actually
even bottom two doesn't sound as appealing

What are your thoughts on this blind structure? It allows a lot of hands to play, but which ones would you play that you would fold in a 1-2 blinds structure?
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DaNutsInYoEye
Old 08-29-2005, 04:20 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Are you talking about completing your SB? Regardless... fold that crap. You're throwing your money away. Not only are you stuck with poor hands, but more importantly you're stuck playing them out of position on every betting round after you call. Who cares if you cards are suited. If you wouldn't play two cards unsuited (ex. 96o) then you shouldn't play them just because they're suited either (96s). People tend to over-value suited cards. Even if you flop a 4-flush, you still want to have position, not trying to draw from EP.

What are you hoping for by playing a hand like 34o? Flopping a straight? How often does that happen? Even if you flop an OESD you're once again drawing from EP to a hand that hits 1/3 the time. Even if you flop 2 pair, it's pretty much always going to be the bottom two pair and then you have to worry about getting counterfeited.
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elipsesjeff
Old 08-29-2005, 04:48 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Are you talking about completing your SB? Regardless... fold that crap. You're throwing your money away. Not only are you stuck with poor hands, but more importantly you're stuck playing them out of position on every betting round after you call. Who cares if you cards are suited. If you wouldn't play two cards unsuited (ex. 96o) then you shouldn't play them just because they're suited either (96s). People tend to over-value suited cards. Even if you flop a 4-flush, you still want to have position, not trying to draw from EP.

What are you hoping for by playing a hand like 34o? Flopping a straight? How often does that happen? Even if you flop an OESD you're once again drawing from EP to a hand that hits 1/3 the time. Even if you flop 2 pair, it's pretty much always going to be the bottom two pair and then you have to worry about getting counterfeited.
Horrible advice.

On a 2/3 blind structure you really have odds to play just about anything. Its those kinds of odds that make playing unsuited semi connected cards like 96o profitable. If two people limp you are getting roughly 14-1 to call, 96o wins more than 7% of the time.

You cant worry about not playing hands preflop that you draw with post flop, its all about the odds anyway. Who cares if you have to draw to hit your hand? As long as it is MORE profitable to call than it is to fold. Sorry Dnuts, but that is probably the worst thing I've heard you say.


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Old 08-29-2005, 04:49 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Are you talking about completing your SB? Regardless... fold that crap. You're throwing your money away. Not only are you stuck with poor hands, but more importantly you're stuck playing them out of position on every betting round after you call. Who cares if you cards are suited. If you wouldn't play two cards unsuited (ex. 96o) then you shouldn't play them just because they're suited either (96s). People tend to over-value suited cards. Even if you flop a 4-flush, you still want to have position, not trying to draw from EP.

What are you hoping for by playing a hand like 34o? Flopping a straight? How often does that happen? Even if you flop an OESD you're once again drawing from EP to a hand that hits 1/3 the time. Even if you flop 2 pair, it's pretty much always going to be the bottom two pair and then you have to worry about getting counterfeited.
I get a flush 6% of the time with my two suited cards. 10BB pot for 1/4 of a BB is ALREADY GIVING YOU THE ODDS
what if you flop two pair, trips or full house?

you hit HARD on the flop 4% of the time (two pair using both hole cards or better)
you're getting 40-1 pot odds and hitting 25-1
your pot odds dictate that you call

Read SSH
it advises to call with any two suited from a 1-2 blind

and no, I'm not talking about a tight game

in fact, all of this discussion is meant for low stakes which I play :O
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Shark Bait
Old 08-29-2005, 07:49 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Read SSH
it advises to call with any two suited from a 1-2 blind
SSH also tells you not to play A9o - A2o. For the small blind, I don't like this advice. lately I've been completing the SB with ace rag off. I think it's worth it.

Looking through PT at the A rag off hands I had in the SB, the difference without the blind is positive with some and negative with others. Kind of mixed results. but A9o and above are positive.
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sinky
Old 08-29-2005, 09:49 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Bait
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Read SSH
it advises to call with any two suited from a 1-2 blind
SSH also tells you not to play A9o - A2o. For the small blind, I don't like this advice. lately I've been completing the SB with ace rag off. I think it's worth it.

Looking through PT at the A rag off hands I had in the SB, the difference without the blind is positive with some and negative with others. Kind of mixed results. but A9o and above are positive.
Don't get too tied up with exactly what hands SSH recommends, concentrate on the pot odds. The point here is the 10/15 blind structure. In the SB your pot odds are 3x what they would be to call on the button. For example with a couple of limpers and the BB behind, you already have 9/1 pot odds.
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Old 08-29-2005, 12:00 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Bait
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Read SSH
it advises to call with any two suited from a 1-2 blind
SSH also tells you not to play A9o - A2o. For the small blind, I don't like this advice. lately I've been completing the SB with ace rag off. I think it's worth it.

Looking through PT at the A rag off hands I had in the SB, the difference without the blind is positive with some and negative with others. Kind of mixed results. but A9o and above are positive.
Well, with the 10-15 blind structure I can see how calling with A9o and A8o is a positive investment against people who play ANY ACE.
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booradly07
Old 08-29-2005, 11:22 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
I get a flush 6% of the time with my two suited cards. 10BB pot for 1/4 of a BB is ALREADY GIVING YOU THE ODDS
what if you flop two pair, trips or full house?

you hit HARD on the flop 4% of the time (two pair using both hole cards or better)
you're getting 40-1 pot odds and hitting 25-1
your pot odds dictate that you call
Hey, can someone help me out with the formula for determining these percentages? I think I actually know the math but its a bit laborous and I was hoping there was a chart that says:
"Any 2 non pair hole cards will make 2 pair X percent of time on the flop, trips X percent of time" etc... so I can forgo the math

Thanks,


Brad
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DaNutsInYoEye
Old 08-29-2005, 11:58 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Horrible advice.

On a 2/3 blind structure you really have odds to play just about anything. Its those kinds of odds that make playing unsuited semi connected cards like 96o profitable. If two people limp you are getting roughly 14-1 to call, 96o wins more than 7% of the time
You're right, and I probably should pay more attention to see if posts such as this are posted in the Limit or NL forum before I post from now on....
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booradly07
Old 08-30-2005, 12:37 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booradly07
Quote:
I get a flush 6% of the time with my two suited cards. 10BB pot for 1/4 of a BB is ALREADY GIVING YOU THE ODDS
what if you flop two pair, trips or full house?

you hit HARD on the flop 4% of the time (two pair using both hole cards or better)
you're getting 40-1 pot odds and hitting 25-1
your pot odds dictate that you call
Hey, can someone help me out with the formula for determining these percentages? I think I actually know the math but its a bit laborous and I was hoping there was a chart that says:
"Any 2 non pair hole cards will make 2 pair X percent of time on the flop, trips X percent of time" etc... so I can forgo the math
btw...I don't want to nitpick the numbers but I think the flush odds may be off.

If you get a 4-flush draw on the flop 11.79% of the time you hold 2 suited cards pre-flop and you only make your flush 34.97% of the time (numbers from Mike Caro's site) you flop a 4-flush then I would think your PRE-FLOP odds of making a flush by the river would be something like 4%.

Is that right?

I dunno but right now my brain is hemmhoraging from trying to figure out how flushes are profitable given the low amount of time they come in for you. Hell I get drawn out on flush draws all the time but that's easy to do when 1/2 your opp's are flush whores that CGAF about odds...and I guess I wouldn't be making any money if it weren't fore the flush whores and their ilk!

EDIT: Suited cards with high card strength and/or connectedness makes a big difference though I guess. Hmm...i think it makes sense to me now...so IMHO, playing suited trash outside of SB is bad m'k...

Brad
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thenonsequitur
Old 08-30-2005, 01:37 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booradly07
If you get a 4-flush draw on the flop 11.79% of the time you hold 2 suited cards pre-flop and you only make your flush 34.97% of the time (numbers from Mike Caro's site) you flop a 4-flush then I would think your PRE-FLOP odds of making a flush by the river would be something like 4%.

Is that right?
This isn't technically correct, because your pre-flop odds of making a flush by the river are not equal to your odds of flopping a four flush and then making a flush by the river (you still make a flush by the river if you only flop a 3-flush and the runner-runner the rest).

Your total preflop odds of making a flush by the river holding two suited cards is a little less than 6%, according to SSH.
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booradly07
Old 08-30-2005, 01:41 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenonsequitur
Quote:
Originally Posted by booradly07
If you get a 4-flush draw on the flop 11.79% of the time you hold 2 suited cards pre-flop and you only make your flush 34.97% of the time (numbers from Mike Caro's site) you flop a 4-flush then I would think your PRE-FLOP odds of making a flush by the river would be something like 4%.

Is that right?
This isn't technically correct, because your pre-flop odds of making a flush by the river are not equal to your odds of flopping a four flush and then making a flush by the river (you still make a flush by the river if you only flop a 3-flush and the runner-runner the rest).

Your total preflop odds of making a flush by the river holding two suited cards is a little less than 6%, according to SSH.
Thanks for clarifying that. My head was starting to hurt trying to figure it out. I'm sure glad folks with better math skills than I have already blazed these trails....
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Old 08-30-2005, 09:30 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenonsequitur
Quote:
Originally Posted by booradly07
If you get a 4-flush draw on the flop 11.79% of the time you hold 2 suited cards pre-flop and you only make your flush 34.97% of the time (numbers from Mike Caro's site) you flop a 4-flush then I would think your PRE-FLOP odds of making a flush by the river would be something like 4%.

Is that right?
This isn't technically correct, because your pre-flop odds of making a flush by the river are not equal to your odds of flopping a four flush and then making a flush by the river (you still make a flush by the river if you only flop a 3-flush and the runner-runner the rest).

Your total preflop odds of making a flush by the river holding two suited cards is a little less than 6%, according to SSH.
You can also just flop a flush, which is different than getting a four-flush :D
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Demiparadigm
Old 08-30-2005, 09:35 AM #14 (permalink)  
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If only we had a sticky somewhere...
Maybe in "Hold 'em strategies..."
And we could call it something like, "Common flop odds"
What a dream that would be!
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Old 09-07-2005, 07:15 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Hold'em for Advanced players says in a 2-3 blind structure call with any two from the small blind unless BB is really aggro.
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