Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Poland
Posts: 632
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Originally Posted by aokrongly
Wouldn't you say the discussion of destacking another player is kind of moot. Stack size pots are generally made with two better than TPTK hands, or someone who decides to put his stack behind a draw against someone who knows the other guy is on the draw. Other than that, it's just when you see someone tilt off for whatever reason. Wouldn't you agree with that.
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Absolutely true. NL cash game is about winning max money, not destacking particular players. Getting call + overcall 30BB each is worth more than 40BB single call and destack. In tourney things may be different but in ring it's flat-out "winning the max, not care about busting someone or not".
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We're talking essentially about not the greatest hands in the world, so if you're going to win more than a 20BB stack with them it will be in a special circumstance. KJ where you make a straight and the other guy has AT(2 pair) for instance.
Axs you're not stacking people with either I would think, unless they have Kx of the same suit or something. It's pretty easy to spot the flush draw, generally. The way you mix that up is by masking your hand with a non-odds giving bet (which is possible).
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You CAN win big pots with sooted Aces, even stack people for 100BB without flush.
You have A5s, opponent has 56s. Unraised pot.
Boards:
A56, 55x : you will win a large chunk of his stack.
66x: he'll win nothing from you
A66: he will win nothing from you or maybe small flop bet
A556: you will bust him
A5566 and you both have lots of money behind - you realize that your boat has been counterfeited and you lay it down or showdown for cheap. Opponents play poor postflop and won't make such a laydown. CptZeebo's fullhose theory 
556: well...it's like AA against set. That's poker.
Raised pot:
You can open-raise Axs for deception, just like AK but if Ace flops, treat it as "moderate hand" and try to show it down cheaply using pot control. This play is designed to get more turn calls in the future from weak kickers when you have "true" TPTK.
With flushdraw in position it's also very easy to play especially if you are PF aggressor and it gets checked around. Also having Ace as overcard can help if someone with JJ will call your AI semibluff.
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In normal play beginners aren't playing either of these hands aggressively preflop.
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They don't need to play it aggro...yet They just must be more smart postflop and play actual "poker" with putting people on hands. It's not a big mistake to fold weak marginal hand (tpnk) in small pot, so newbiez can play it only for Aces up+ and flushes and c/f TPNK.
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If you can make a case for raising Axs in a limp pot with position then you can make a case for raising KJ0. Both have the same logic, I would think.
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Multilimpers and position...well it's a bit different situation. I think in this situation big raise with KJ and trying to pick-up dead money is more reasonable because KJ, AJ ets. hate drawing boards, and like heads-up situation. A5s is a bit different. Pounding limps and huge c-bet on flop has its merits but I think it's waste of Axs. Let's say you have A 5 on button and face 5 limpers + SB completes with wide range and your opponents play poorly postflop. Why try to fold out someone with 76, or 5 4 when he has deep stack and can pay you off on 55x board or flush board?
Comments?
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