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Posted: Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 11:47am Post subject: TPTK -- What's the philosophy?
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Flush
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 319
WPP: 142
Location: Connecticut
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I, like many other beginners, have come to know the peril of TPTK. A few minutes ago in the BB with 1 limper and the SB completing I raise to 4x with AJ suited, and both call. Flop goes 7 J 3 rainbow. SB checks, I lead out with a PSB, UTG+1 calls, SB folds. Turn is another 3, another PSB, and another flat call. River is it doesn't matter, duh the guy had 33 for quads.
My question is: do we need to assume that guys are sitting on a set when they check/call on us when we have TPTK? I thought we bet for information, and I can't count the number of times I've stacked people with TPGK when I had TPTK. I know some alarm bells should be going off with the c/c but at what point is it self defeating to assume that? You could be good a good majority of the time and people are just floating looking to pair one of their hole cards.
Help? |
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Posted: Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 12:21pm Post subject: ...
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Full House
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 863
WPP: 161
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Last edited by aokrongly on Tue, 22 Jan 2008, 3:44pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 12:26pm Post subject: Re: TPTK -- What's the philosophy?
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 3597
WPP: 51
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| takesix wrote: | I, like many other beginners, have come to know the peril of TPTK. A few minutes ago in the BB with 1 limper and the SB completing I raise to 4x with AJ suited, and both call. Flop goes 7 J 3 rainbow. SB checks, I lead out with a PSB, UTG+1 calls, SB folds. Turn is another 3, another PSB, and another flat call. River is it doesn't matter, duh the guy had 33 for quads.
My question is: do we need to assume that guys are sitting on a set when they check/call on us when we have TPTK? I thought we bet for information, and I can't count the number of times I've stacked people with TPGK when I had TPTK. I know some alarm bells should be going off with the c/c but at what point is it self defeating to assume that? You could be good a good majority of the time and people are just floating looking to pair one of their hole cards.
Help? |
no don't assume you are always getting slowplayed because you're not - remember how badly people CHASE? also, you should NOT bet only for information! try not betting the size of the pot every time - that builds big pots. in your case you built a big pot with a weak hand while out of position - this is one of the worst scenarios in all of poker. don't do this! a bet between 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot gives bad odds to chasers, helps weaker hands call more than a PSB does, and it keeps the pot size smaller for when you're in trouble. there's usually not a good reason to bet that much. |
Last edited by martindcx1e on Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 12:30pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 12:28pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 3597
WPP: 51
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| aokrongly wrote: |
So I recommend 1/2-2/3 size bets with TPTK. |
| martindcx1e wrote: | | a bet between 1/2 - 2/3... |
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Posted: Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 12:30pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Posts: 2956
WPP: 109
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| Typically, a set is for stacking people. It's a hidden hand and destroys non flush and non straight boards TPTK is for winning small pots and thinning the field post flop if you still have 2 or 3 callers. Use your TPTK to make value bets to chase out draws post flop, or at least make them pay. If someone is calling pot sized bets on the flop and turn then slow down. You will rarely if ever stack someone with TPTK so don't try and don't get exited when they are throwing out missles at you when you hold AK or KQ and the board is rainbow with you hitting a pair. |
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Posted: Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 12:34pm Post subject: Re: TPTK -- What's the philosophy?
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Flush
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 319
WPP: 142
Location: Connecticut
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| Quote: | | no don't assume you are always getting slowplayed because you're not - remember how badly people CHASE? also, you should NOT bet only for information! try not betting the size of the pot every time - that builds big pots. in your case you built a big pot with a weak hand while out of position - this is one of the worst scenarios in all of poker. don't do this! a bet between 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot gives bad odds to chasers, helps weaker hands call more than a PSB does, and it keeps the pot size smaller for when you're in trouble. there's usually not a good reason to bet that much. |
Well I had seen the guy on maybe 4 of the previous 10 hands do what to me looked like "floating"... he'd call a flop bet, with a turn check he'd bet and they'd fold. Or call the flop bet, raise after the turn check and after a turn call, they'd check the river and he'd bet hard, and they'd fold. I tend to 4 table, so for me to notice something like that means he probably did it more than 4 times in that 10 hand span.
What should have struck me was there were NO draws out there at all, rainbow, at best an inside straight to draw to so yeah, 1/2 to 2/3 pot bet would have been better -- I just kind of wanted to take it down and by the time I realized (river, i put him on 77) the pot was already like 80 BB with another 10 to go so at that point I might as well hope he had KJ. |
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Posted: Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 12:42pm Post subject: Re: TPTK -- What's the philosophy?
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 3597
WPP: 51
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| takesix wrote: | | ...the pot was already like 80 BB with another 10 to go so at that point I might as well hope he had KJ. |
right so don't build big pots w/o big hands. |
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Posted: Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 2:45pm Post subject: Re: TPTK -- What's the philosophy?
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High Card
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 12
WPP: 58
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| takesix wrote: | | Quote: | | no don't assume you are always getting slowplayed because you're not - remember how badly people CHASE? also, you should NOT bet only for information! try not betting the size of the pot every time - that builds big pots. in your case you built a big pot with a weak hand while out of position - this is one of the worst scenarios in all of poker. don't do this! a bet between 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot gives bad odds to chasers, helps weaker hands call more than a PSB does, and it keeps the pot size smaller for when you're in trouble. there's usually not a good reason to bet that much. |
Well I had seen the guy on maybe 4 of the previous 10 hands do what to me looked like "floating"... he'd call a flop bet, with a turn check he'd bet and they'd fold. Or call the flop bet, raise after the turn check and after a turn call, they'd check the river and he'd bet hard, and they'd fold. I tend to 4 table, so for me to notice something like that means he probably did it more than 4 times in that 10 hand span.
What should have struck me was there were NO draws out there at all, rainbow, at best an inside straight to draw to so yeah, 1/2 to 2/3 pot bet would have been better -- I just kind of wanted to take it down and by the time I realized (river, i put him on 77) the pot was already like 80 BB with another 10 to go so at that point I might as well hope he had KJ. |
So in other words you're saying you put him on a set of sevens, the winning hand, and you decide to try to take down the pot??? Does that make any sense at all??? |
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Posted: Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 3:05pm Post subject:
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OLD MAN RIVER
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 3550
WPP: 75
Location: Canuckistan
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| martindcx1e wrote: | | aokrongly wrote: |
So I recommend 1/2-2/3 size bets with TPTK. |
| martindcx1e wrote: | | a bet between 1/2 - 2/3... |
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Anything less than 2/3 on the flop is asking for trouble. I think most players generally perceive a 1/2 pot bet as weak and you're therefore just asking draws to come along for the ride. Yes, you want them to call but only when it is a mistake for them to do so. TPTK is a vulnerable hand, which means you need to isolate and play it fast. While a set may be able to "hide" behind a PSB, if you're being check/called or smoothcalled then caution on the turn is a given. Then making a weaker 1/2 pot bet is appropriate, as it will likely stimulate a raise from a set with only 1 more street to go. |
Last edited by Warpe on Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 3:09pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 3:06pm Post subject: Re: TPTK -- What's the philosophy?
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Flush
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 319
WPP: 142
Location: Connecticut
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| ALLinWIT_72 wrote: | | So in other words you're saying you put him on a set of sevens, the winning hand, and you decide to try to take down the pot??? Does that make any sense at all??? |
Hey, I've been wrong before.
Also, figuring it out on the river was a little late. I guess I coulda saved $5, at the possible expense of $45. At that stage I might as well hope. |
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Posted: Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 4:01pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 3597
WPP: 51
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| Warpe wrote: | | martindcx1e wrote: | | aokrongly wrote: |
So I recommend 1/2-2/3 size bets with TPTK. |
| martindcx1e wrote: | | a bet between 1/2 - 2/3... |
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Anything less than 2/3 on the flop is asking for trouble. I think most players generally perceive a 1/2 pot bet as weak and you're therefore just asking draws to come along for the ride. Yes, you want them to call but only when it is a mistake for them to do so. TPTK is a vulnerable hand, which means you need to isolate and play it fast. While a set may be able to "hide" behind a PSB, if you're being check/called or smoothcalled then caution on the turn is a given. Then making a weaker 1/2 pot bet is appropriate, as it will likely stimulate a raise from a set with only 1 more street to go. |
i'm fine with 1/2 pot bets because my opponents usually don't have implied odds against me if their draw completes. with almost any draw it is incorrect to call 1/2 the pot if you don't consider implied odds. |
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Posted: Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 4:10pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Posts: 2956
WPP: 109
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| Quote: | | the pot was already like 80 BB with another 10 to go |
| Quote: | | I guess I coulda saved $5, at the possible expense of $45. At that stage I might as well hope. | So then we can assume your playing a $0.25/$0.50 table with your $1000 roll. Let's not even start BR management because it's been covered to death, but if you make this play 10 times that's a buy-in, @ any limit. And if you have the attitude that it's 1:9 as a value bet....It's the river, too late for value, It's time to show winning hands. Putting guys on a hand at the river is too late as well, the information has been given, or not, depending on previous betting. |
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Posted: Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 4:26pm Post subject:
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OLD MAN RIVER
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 3550
WPP: 75
Location: Canuckistan
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| martindcx1e wrote: | | with almost any draw it is incorrect to call 1/2 the pot if you don't consider implied odds. |
No decent poker player doesn't consider implied odds. |
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Posted: Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 4:38pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Posts: 2956
WPP: 109
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Posted: Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 4:49pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3316
WPP: 85
Location: practicing mindfulness
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| Warpe wrote: | | martindcx1e wrote: | | i'm fine with 1/2 pot bets because my opponents usually don't have implied odds against me if their draw completes. with almost any draw it is incorrect to call 1/2 the pot if you don't consider implied odds. |
No decent poker player doesn't consider implied odds. |
He was saying he only bets 1/2 pot because he's really good at laying down his TPTK when draws complete. Since he's not offering his opp. implied odds, he feels comfortable only betting 1/2 pot, which is plenty to give them incorrect immediate odds. |
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Posted: Fri, 14 Jul 2006, 10:44pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 3597
WPP: 51
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| zook wrote: | | Warpe wrote: | | martindcx1e wrote: | | i'm fine with 1/2 pot bets because my opponents usually don't have implied odds against me if their draw completes. with almost any draw it is incorrect to call 1/2 the pot if you don't consider implied odds. |
No decent poker player doesn't consider implied odds. |
He was saying he only bets 1/2 pot because he's really good at laying down his TPTK when draws complete. Since he's not offering his opp. implied odds, he feels comfortable only betting 1/2 pot, which is plenty to give them incorrect immediate odds. |
correct sir! |
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Posted: Sat, 15 Jul 2006, 7:29am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 3173
WPP: 88
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
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Note to self: martin is tight/weak  |
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Posted: Sat, 15 Jul 2006, 7:37am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Posts: 2956
WPP: 109
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| Note to Biondino. Check your PM's. |
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Posted: Sat, 15 Jul 2006, 10:44am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 3597
WPP: 51
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| biondino wrote: | | Note to self: martin is tight/weak |
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