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Posted: Thu, 29 Oct 2009, 3:51pm Post subject: Why dont the nits play the maniac more? (3 hands)
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Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 4209
WPP: 150
Location: St. Louis, MO
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NO ONE would take this guy on but me. i suppose they never picked up AA.
one...
$0.50/$1 Limit Holdem
10 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
READ: a couple B2B hands with a maniac (65/40/4)...i NEVER pull this kind of bluff/raise, but i figured against his range and a possible missed fd this was a good spot for one....
Stacks:
UTG ($17.55)
UTG+1 ($20)
UTG+2 ($16.30)
Hero ($21.50)
MP2 ($46.40)
MP3 ($20.90)
CO ($35.10)
BTN ($6.40)
SB ($29.50)
BB ($14.35)
Pre-Flop: (1.5 SB, 10 players) Hero is MP1  
3 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BTN 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls
Flop:    (7.5 SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets, Hero calls
Turn:  (4.8 BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets, Hero calls
River:  (6.8 BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets, Hero raises, BTN 3-bets, Hero folds
Final Pot: 11.8 BB
BTN wins 11.2 BB (net +5.2 BB)
Hero lost 5.0 BB
two...
$0.50/$1 Limit Holdem
10 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
READ: and, the very next hand. stay the course...
Stacks:
UTG ($20)
UTG+1 ($16.30)
Hero ($16.50)
MP1 ($46.40)
MP2 ($20.90)
MP3 ($35.10)
CO ($11.65)
BTN ($29.25)
SB ($13.85)
BB ($17.55)
Pre-Flop: (1.5 SB, 10 players) Hero is UTG+2
2 folds, Hero raises, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls
Flop:    (10.5 SB, 3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds
Turn:  (6.2 BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls
River:  (8.2 BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO calls
Final Pot: 12.2 BB
Hero shows a flush, Ace high
CO shows
 
Hero wins 11.8 BB (net +6.8 BB)
MP1 lost 1.5 BB
CO lost 5.0 BB
three...
$0.50/$1 Limit Holdem
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
READ: final donkey strike, and i get him...and, he left before i could note that his bluff3bet in the first hand was probably just that...a bluff.
Stacks:
UTG ($9.35)
UTG+1 ($13.80)
MP1 ($20)
MP2 ($45)
Hero ($17.65)
CO ($32.70)
BTN ($38.80)
SB ($17.05)
BB ($29.25)
Pre-Flop: (1.5 SB, 9 players) Hero is MP3 
4 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero 4-bets, SB calls
Flop:   (9.0 SB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls
Turn:  (6.5 BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls
River:  (8.5 BB, 2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero 4-bets, SB calls
Final Pot: 16.5 BB
Hero shows a full house, Nines full of Kings
SB shows
Hero wins 16.0 BB (net +8.0 BB)
SB lost 8.0 BB |
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Posted: Thu, 29 Oct 2009, 5:51pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 363
WPP: 138
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Nice. I actually buddy list those people when they try to do things like that continually. For the one time they have a hand that holds up you can get at least 4-5 where they have nothing.
What is your opinion on maniacs (with high ranges) who constantly play into you? Do you loosen up your range and fire more often? Or wait for a premium hand to trap with like that last one? |
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Posted: Thu, 29 Oct 2009, 6:00pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 1768
WPP: 77
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I don't really like the check-raises on the river against maniacs like that. Usually just check-call and let them value town themselves.
Bad things can happen when you raise them. They might 3bet bluff you back with rags if they are really bad (most lags are) and that is a disaster, putting in 2 bets then not getting a showdown. |
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Posted: Thu, 29 Oct 2009, 8:27pm Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 4209
WPP: 150
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| ponyboy wrote: | | What is your opinion on maniacs (with high ranges) who constantly play into you? Do you loosen up your range and fire more often? Or wait for a premium hand to trap with like that last one? |
honestly, i usually try to isolate them a bit more in limit games, and i play rather passive post flop with showdown hands (Ahi/pp's/middle pair). however, when i flop TPTK+, i am not too afraid to stick a couple extra bets in the pot.
imo, the trick is to know when it's better to let them spew, but a raise would slow them down, or when to jam because they actually hit a hand. i usually try to jam when there are obvious draws up because i find maniacs love to spew draws. but, i am no expert on pegging them. here, it was just easy to get in every hand with him because the 4-5 players between us were such nits that i would 3bet and they folded like chumps. so, i kept doing it as long as they let me.
here's a better tip: i actually had a BAD seat at this table and was looking for a reason to leave. i was across the table from this guy, and there was another player two seats to my left that was running over 33% vpip. i cant steal blinds and too many tighter players, that may isolate him, are acting after the maniac but before me. that isnt usually a profitable situation. that is why i raised the KTo hand pre. it's not a bad spot to do so when opening a pot, i would get to see how the others may react, and i hadnt raised a hand yet (i was running about 12/0/oo at that point through an orbit or two).
watch for good seats AND bad ones. if in a "so-so" seat, test the waters early and see if it may be worth sticking around. if you get cold called, look for the exit most times because you aren't going to be able to isolate the fish easily. but, if they let you isolate, you may have a better seat than you first thought. so, you stick around and see what you can get away with. if they continue to let you isolate, you continue to do so. when/if they finally stand up to you, you see what they were waiting for and re-evaluate your seat.
| Kornholio wrote: | I don't really like the check-raises on the river against maniacs like that. Usually just check-call and let them value town themselves.
Bad things can happen when you raise them. They might 3bet bluff you back with rags if they are really bad (most lags are) and that is a disaster, putting in 2 bets then not getting a showdown. |
i agree. like i said, i never do this. however, i didnt have a lot of showdown value, certainly not without a strong read, and i wasnt going to win the hand. so, i felt it was a big enough pot to fight for and if he had a busted draw, he may let me have it with a c/r.
i also wanted to send him the message, since it was so early in my session, that i would play back at him. that way i could do this again when i had the goods and get paid off. the thing about maniacs is they usually know who is willing to play back at them and who isnt. and, when someone plays through the turn, but folds the river, they know they can play hard for 3 streets on you and you will fold some decent stuff. i wanted him to know i would stay to the river with him......when in reality i wont.
i saw this as huge risk/huge reward for the specific hand, but moderate risk/huge reward for the next 30 minutes or so.
you should have seen the table. i was running 30-ish vpip and everyone else was running under 18% (except the one other)....several of them in the single digits. |
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Posted: Thu, 29 Oct 2009, 10:32pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 1768
WPP: 77
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| Against a true maniac, the nut no pair hand has mucho showdown value. Save the check-raise river bluffs for when you have no SD value at all, like a low missed flush or straight draw. |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Oct 2009, 10:04am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 4209
WPP: 150
Location: St. Louis, MO
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| KoRnholio wrote: | | Against a true maniac, the nut no pair hand has mucho showdown value. Save the check-raise river bluffs for when you have no SD value at all, like a low missed flush or straight draw. |
i dont know if that was aimed at my KTo hand, but if so, i call there with Ahi. the only reason i ripped him was because i couldnt beat Ahi, but could see Ahi folding, along with weaker pairs, if HE held those. |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Oct 2009, 1:47pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 1768
WPP: 77
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It was kinda aimed at both hands. The KQ hand I missed the flush actually, with just KQ high I'd have called there with good showdown value.
The KT needs a better read than I have I suppose. Most of the maniacs I have run into just don't fold on the river with ace high hands. Sometimes they check them behind. But if they have trash, you know they will be 3 barrelling it. So I think KT still has decent showdown value there against typical maniacs. |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Oct 2009, 2:10pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 851
WPP: 179
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| KoRnholio wrote: | | Against a true maniac, the nut no pair hand has mucho showdown value. Save the check-raise river bluffs for when you have no SD value at all, like a low missed flush or straight draw. |
And be careful against maniacs who love to re-pop on the river. It's actually better to show down with Ace high against those sorts than to bluff missed draws. |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Oct 2009, 2:55pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 1768
WPP: 77
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| LawDude wrote: | | KoRnholio wrote: | | Against a true maniac, the nut no pair hand has mucho showdown value. Save the check-raise river bluffs for when you have no SD value at all, like a low missed flush or straight draw. |
And be careful against maniacs who love to re-pop on the river. It's actually better to show down with Ace high against those sorts than to bluff missed draws. |
That is just what I said. Show down the A/good K highs. If you really want to run a bluff, do it with that 76s that whiffed. |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Oct 2009, 3:22pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 851
WPP: 179
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| I'm not even sure we should be running any bluffs with hands with no showdown value against this villain. He's basically telling us "you can beat me, but you are going to have to show down your hand to do it". (By coincidence, I played against one of these guys last night. I was truly card dead, but people were winning pots showing down small pairs and ace high against him the entire time.) So why run a bluff with a whiffed draw? He's just too likely to pop you with a bad hand that is slightly better than your bad hand. Be a little patient, get something with at least minimal SD value, and semi-bluff away. |
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