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Posted: Fri, 19 Sep 2008, 3:39am Post subject: Who is correct?
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i rarely, if ever, get pms
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 4320
WPP: 178
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Ok here's the scenario:
Blinds are at 50/100. hero has 4k and villain 6k.
Villain has been standard - not overly aggro but not a total nit over our small sample size of 40 ish hands. He raises to 300 from the CO.
Folds to Hero who has   in the BB.
Hero raises to 900 and the villain calls.
Flop comes    Pot has like 2k, hero now has about 3k and villain 5k.
Hero checks, villain shoves, and hero feels foolish after calling and villain shows  
Hero then tries to convince me that he now thinks the correct way to play this hand is to smooth call pre, donkbet any flop and fold to a raise on a flop with A or K. I tell him he's being results oriented, that he's losing value to lower pairs by playing this way and getting bluffed by hands that he is beating. He responds that he's still stacking lower pairs on non-A or K flops, that 3 betting is often forcing smaller pairs out, and that he is now beating AK 2/3 of the time rather than 1/2 the time because he is forcing AK to only see 3 cards rather than 5 (which is what happens when AK makes the standard play by shoving against his 3-bet pre).
Who is right?
And more importantly - why? |
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Posted: Fri, 19 Sep 2008, 3:52am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 3556
WPP: 112
Location: at your tables, calling your bets
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| There are a lot of problems with your friend's plan, but let's start with the most obvious one, donking a K high flop and folding to a raise is terrible. This is a flop that villain is c-betting with almost all of his range and you have an awesome bluff catcher, why would you want to freeze him out of making that c-bet? If I somehow called preflop with QQ and the flop came K high, I'd fistpump check because I know I'm getting one, maybe two bets out of air. |
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Posted: Fri, 19 Sep 2008, 4:08am Post subject:
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i rarely, if ever, get pms
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 4320
WPP: 178
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Ok - his response would be:
tI agree. I probably wouldn't donkbet a K hi board, I'd check/call it. But this supports my argument that smoothcalling pre is better than 3 betting. It allows me to check/call an A or K hi flop, but I can still c/raise any other flop and get his stack. |
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Posted: Fri, 19 Sep 2008, 5:57am Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 10 May 2007
Posts: 226
WPP: 86
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I think an argument can be made for either play pre tbh, although I wouldn't smooth call and donk out on an A/K high flop.
But really doesn't this boil down to a big bet poker v small ball poker question? Is so, the decision should be made considering tourney structure and how the table is playing as much as anything else. |
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Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 11:43pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Posts: 929
WPP: 113
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| Am I crazy or is your friend considering a lot? I know tons of players who would only call with PP to hit sets and would fold to any flop bet. Not to mention I also know players who would check call the flop with a missed AK, or c-bet and call a raise/push. Since when is it bad to isolate with QQ? Not to mention that smaller pairs are stacking you when they do hit a set. |
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