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Posted: Wed, 19 Nov 2008, 10:05pm Post subject: What's your fold to 3bet %?
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Flush
Joined: 04 Jun 2007
Posts: 525
WPP: 86
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Just curious what percentage ppl are folding to 3bets.
since moving to 200NL, i see the huge difference in game dynamics.
I swear, every time their is a PFR, they will flip a coin, heads they will 3bet to 26, tails they will 3bet to 22, if somehow lands in corner of the coin and its neither heads nor tails, thennnnnnnnn they will either fold or just call. my 4bet range shot up close to 4% now over 10k hands ish. |
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Posted: Wed, 19 Nov 2008, 10:24pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 1819
WPP: 67
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| could you post some hands with short writeups on each? would be awesome. |
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Posted: Wed, 19 Nov 2008, 10:50pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 894
WPP: 109
Location: Santa Cruz
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| my fold to 3 bet is 81% over 200nl and 400nl. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 12:25am Post subject:
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Eats babies
Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Posts: 3884
WPP: 109
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| 69% but my 4 bet is 4.5%. I am trying to get my fold % up to 75% without effecting my 4bet. |
Last edited by jyms on Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 7:58am; edited 2 times in total
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 1:18am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 5681
WPP: 126
Location: Ballarat, Australia
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| My fold to 3-bet is ridiculously low. Its a real leak of mine. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 1:25am Post subject:
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Almost as bad as that idiot redgrape
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6593
WPP: 74
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| Why are you guys folding to threebets really little? Your throwing away money. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 1:29am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 5681
WPP: 126
Location: Ballarat, Australia
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| 43% over last two months. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 1:31am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3558
WPP: 84
Location: right here
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| 50%, which is probably a tad too low. I 4bet 15%. What can I say, I'm lagtarded. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 1:49am Post subject:
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LAME HUMOR THAT MAKES FISH LAUGH
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8092
WPP: 75
Location: This room is a good place to be
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 2:49am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3299
WPP: 87
Location: Toronto'ish
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I fold to 3bets 65% ..
I 4bet 13.2%
I need to lower both of these numbers! |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 4:56am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 894
WPP: 109
Location: Santa Cruz
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| lol im a nit compared to everyone here. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 4:58am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 3037
WPP: 73
Location: Not Giving In
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Fold to 3bet: 65%
4bet: 12.2%
so close griff |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 5:37am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 29 Mar 2007
Posts: 1334
WPP: 83
Location: Deventer
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 7:24am Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 17 Jul 2008
Posts: 239
WPP: 53
Location: Dublin
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Mine is crazy low @ 56%
Just spotted a big leak, cheers OP |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 7:45am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 4135
WPP: 63
Location: slow motion
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fold to 3b3t%: 64%
4bet%: 11% |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 7:59am Post subject:
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Eats babies
Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Posts: 3884
WPP: 109
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edit: wow I actually just looked again since the start of the month.
3bet% 7.5
3bet call 24%
Fold to 3bet 55%
that makes my 4bet% 21  |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 8:11am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4170
WPP: 77
Location: Dublin
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| i dont 4bet since ive found they always have it |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 9:42am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 4135
WPP: 63
Location: slow motion
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| jyms wrote: | edit: wow I actually just looked again since the start of the month.
3bet% 7.5
3bet call 24%
Fold to 3bet 55%
that makes my 4bet% 21 |
check your raise 3bet stat in HEM, 4betting 21% cant be right. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 11:14am Post subject:
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LAME HUMOR THAT MAKES FISH LAUGH
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8092
WPP: 75
Location: This room is a good place to be
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| Da GOAT wrote: | | i dont 4bet since ive found they always have it |
haha! |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 12:11pm Post subject:
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Almost as bad as that idiot redgrape
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6593
WPP: 74
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| My god people, I normally dont like giving general advice but i dont see any reason why your fld to 3bet% isnt 75%+. 65% is pretty low, 55% is ridiculously low. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 12:30pm Post subject:
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LAME HUMOR THAT MAKES FISH LAUGH
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8092
WPP: 75
Location: This room is a good place to be
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| But we can outplay them on future streets! amirite gais! |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 12:44pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3558
WPP: 84
Location: right here
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| a500lbgorilla wrote: | | But we can outplay them on future streets! amirite gais! |
absotootly |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 2:10pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3299
WPP: 87
Location: Toronto'ish
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| IowaSkinsFan wrote: | | My god people, I normally dont like giving general advice but i dont see any reason why your fld to 3bet% isnt 75%+. 65% is pretty low, 55% is ridiculously low. |
You've definitely said this in other threads before. I completely agree with with this, for like lower stakes games where 3-betting light isn't THAT rampant, but how do you get away with this at our higher stakes games?
I feel like I pound on ppl that fold to >75% 3bets nonstop, and if they call and I don't have anything legit I mostly just c/f. Do you feel you make up for this, by ppl not adjusting enough and not c/f'ing enough? |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 3:15pm Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4170
WPP: 77
Location: Dublin
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| wud love some analysis on your thoughts isf why 75%+ is good. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 3:28pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 444
WPP: 98
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Wow... my fold the 3bet is only 57%, with a 4bet of 11% and this is at full ring.
Is it really a leak if your almost never calling 3bets oop and it usually like, I make it $3 from button, bb makes it $10 and Im only calling $7 with at least 100bb stax in pos.??? |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 5:41pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 822
WPP: 76
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I completely agree with ISF.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are 4-betting 11% of the time, wouldn't that mean we are 4bet bluffing way more often than we are 4betting for value?
My 4bet% is at only ~5% and I do bluff once in a while and 4bet JJ+, AK most of the time for value. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 6:09pm Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 5681
WPP: 126
Location: Ballarat, Australia
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| a500lbgorilla wrote: | | But we can outplay them on future streets! amirite gais! |
This is my problem. I'll "outplay them postflop on non-scary boards", but in reality almost all the time play fit or fold postflop. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 6:30pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3299
WPP: 87
Location: Toronto'ish
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| JL wrote: |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are 4-betting 11% of the time, wouldn't that mean we are 4bet bluffing way more often than we are 4betting for value?
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Not necessarily, there are lots of ppl that 3bet waaay too much and shove light enough that I'm 4bet calling off 88+. Really depends on villain though obviously. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 6:33pm Post subject:
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LAME HUMOR THAT MAKES FISH LAUGH
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8092
WPP: 75
Location: This room is a good place to be
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| bjsaust wrote: | | a500lbgorilla wrote: | | But we can outplay them on future streets! amirite gais! |
This is my problem. I'll "outplay them postflop on non-scary boards", but in reality almost all the time play fit or fold postflop. |
I would say it's everyone's leak in this thread! |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 6:52pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3558
WPP: 84
Location: right here
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| JL wrote: | | Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are 4-betting 11% of the time, wouldn't that mean we are 4bet bluffing way more often than we are 4betting for value? |
This should always be the case.
fwiw, I think 75% fold to 3bet is absurd. I think 60-65% is reasonable.
edit: This should always be the case as long as villain is folding more than 1/2 the time. Given that most villains' stack off range is 3% (JJ+,AK) or less you should 4bet bluff players 3betting 6% much less than those 3betting more. I think 8% is a good cutoff. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 7:34pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 822
WPP: 76
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| zook wrote: | | JL wrote: | | Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are 4-betting 11% of the time, wouldn't that mean we are 4bet bluffing way more often than we are 4betting for value? |
This should always be the case.
fwiw, I think 75% fold to 3bet is absurd. I think 60-65% is reasonable.
edit: This should always be the case as long as villain is folding more than 1/2 the time. Given that most villains' stack off range is 3% (JJ+,AK) or less you should 4bet bluff players 3betting 6% much less than those 3betting more. I think 8% is a good cutoff. |
So then it would be +EV to 5bet jam ATC against these players until they adjust, assuming they only call the 5bet jam with JJ+, AK.
I think folding to 75% of 3bets is completely reasonable.
I think defending against 3bets and defending your blinds go hand in hand. They are both overrated.
If you raise preflop and get re-raised, it is much better to err on the side of folding too often, rather than calling too often. When you fold, you lose only 3-4bbs. However, when you call or 4bet, you put your entire stack at risk.
If you aren't an excellent player and don't have good reads on your opponents, calling/4betting too often could become a massive leak |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 7:46pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3558
WPP: 84
Location: right here
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| JL wrote: | | So then it would be +EV to 5bet jam ATC against these players until they adjust, assuming they only call the 5bet jam with JJ+, AK. |
Yeah this would definitely be +ev. A small 4bet is much cheaper though. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 8:19pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 822
WPP: 76
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| zook wrote: | | JL wrote: | | So then it would be +EV to 5bet jam ATC against these players until they adjust, assuming they only call the 5bet jam with JJ+, AK. |
Yeah this would definitely be +ev. A small 4bet is much cheaper though. |
Do you mean a small 5bet?
If you do, then you can't possibly 5bet and then fold, so I don't see how it could be cheaper. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 8:33pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3558
WPP: 84
Location: right here
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| Sorry, I misread your first reply, I thought you wrote it would be +EV to 4bet jam ATC as hero. Didn't realize you meant 5bet jam as villain. Of course villain can adjust to our greater bluffing frequency, but then they're risking their stack when we're risking less than 1/3 of ours. There's a reasonably unexploitable 4bet bluffing frequency that someone calculated here awhile ago (renton maybe?) and it was close to 3:1 bluffs to value. I say reasonably b/c if they really start 5bet jamming ATC then you have to reduce your bluff frequency, but as I said, that's super exploitable b/c they're risking so much more on their bluff than you are. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 8:53pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 3556
WPP: 112
Location: at your tables, calling your bets
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| zook wrote: | | ...as I said, that's super exploitable b/c they're risking so much more on their bluff than you are. |
For 100 BB they really aren't. Considering the equity they have when called, they're risking somewhere between 30% and 35% of their stack. With your 4-bet you're risking around 25% of a stack. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 9:03pm Post subject:
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LAME HUMOR THAT MAKES FISH LAUGH
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8092
WPP: 75
Location: This room is a good place to be
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| zook wrote: | | JL wrote: | | Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are 4-betting 11% of the time, wouldn't that mean we are 4bet bluffing way more often than we are 4betting for value? |
This should always be the case.
fwiw, I think 75% fold to 3bet is absurd. I think 60-65% is reasonable. |
If 75% is exploitable, it's less so than 60%. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 9:37pm Post subject:
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Eats babies
Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Posts: 3884
WPP: 109
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| bode wrote: |
check your raise 3bet stat in HEM, 4betting 21% cant be right. | After a monster session last night my stats for the month.
I definitely still call too much, I must really call a ton vs only certain opponents though. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 11:25pm Post subject:
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Almost as bad as that idiot redgrape
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6593
WPP: 74
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Factors to decide how much to call a 3bet or 4 bet.
1. How much your opponent is threebetting you.
2. How big they are threebetting you.
3. How much you are opening from whatever position preflop.
4. How passive/aggressive op is post flop (for 4betting how good he is postflop as well).
Normally #1, especially at low stakes, is pretty low. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 11:27pm Post subject:
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Almost as bad as that idiot redgrape
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6593
WPP: 74
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| zook wrote: | | JL wrote: | | Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are 4-betting 11% of the time, wouldn't that mean we are 4bet bluffing way more often than we are 4betting for value? |
This should always be the case.
fwiw, I think 75% fold to 3bet is absurd. I think 60-65% is reasonable.
edit: This should always be the case as long as villain is folding more than 1/2 the time. Given that most villains' stack off range is 3% (JJ+,AK) or less you should 4bet bluff players 3betting 6% much less than those 3betting more. I think 8% is a good cutoff. |
Its absurd to make this big of a generalization. If your opponent is 3betting AA only, you should only play AA, so I guess your fold to 3bet% is something like 99% against this guy, right? Just because your folding a lot doesn't mean someone is doing something about it. |
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Posted: Thu, 20 Nov 2008, 11:37pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 751
WPP: 108
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| Mine is 75%, and I think I don't fold enough. I think a lot of this depends on your games and your selection of said games. I think that Im folding 90% oop and maybe 60 IP, but this is something Im still working on. My 4 bet is 5%, but again most of this is oop, and I am raising 20%+ from utg - btn. If you can seat select well, which includes getting the nits on your left, you can feel confident folding 85%+ to 3bets. |
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Posted: Fri, 21 Nov 2008, 2:04am Post subject:
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{NSFW - nipple}
Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 2186
WPP: 107
Location: The Loser's Lounge
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| IowaSkinsFan wrote: | | My god people, I normally dont like giving general advice but i dont see any reason why your fld to 3bet% isnt 75%+. 65% is pretty low, 55% is ridiculously low. |
Glad you clarified. The way your first post was worded thought you were scolding everything for folding 65% of the time and should be calling more. I totally agree with ISF on this one. If you small stakes guys feel you need to call 35% or more 3-bets your game selection needs work. |
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Posted: Fri, 21 Nov 2008, 10:35am Post subject:
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High Card
Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 8
WPP: 15
Location: Manchester, USA
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mine is 60.87%...
is that good/? |
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Posted: Fri, 21 Nov 2008, 3:07pm Post subject:
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Almost as bad as that idiot redgrape
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6593
WPP: 74
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| Galapogos wrote: | | If you small stakes guys feel you need to call 35% or more 3-bets your game selection needs work. |
Thats not true, at least not always. |
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Posted: Fri, 21 Nov 2008, 9:17pm Post subject:
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{NSFW - nipple}
Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 2186
WPP: 107
Location: The Loser's Lounge
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| IowaSkinsFan wrote: | | Galapogos wrote: | | If you small stakes guys feel you need to call 35% or more 3-bets your game selection needs work. |
Thats not true, at least not always. |
I was generalizing off your generalizing. |
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Posted: Fri, 21 Nov 2008, 11:00pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 894
WPP: 109
Location: Santa Cruz
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| I just found that HEM and PT fold to 3 bet stats are drastically different. PT3 counts every time you fold to a 3 bet when action is on you regardless if you made the original raise that was 3 bet or not. HEM only counts times you fold after YOUR raise gets 3 bet. |
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Posted: Fri, 21 Nov 2008, 11:12pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3299
WPP: 87
Location: Toronto'ish
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| thizzSantaCruz wrote: | | I just found that HEM and PT fold to 3 bet stats are drastically different. PT3 counts every time you fold to a 3 bet when action is on you regardless if you made the original raise that was 3 bet or not. HEM only counts times you fold after YOUR raise gets 3 bet. |
hmmm.. interesting.. so people's fold to 3bet stat is over-estimated with PT3 then? If this was the case, this would definitely change the stats quite a bit! |
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Posted: Fri, 21 Nov 2008, 11:20pm Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 4135
WPP: 63
Location: slow motion
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| HEM says 64%, PT3 says 73%, which definitely seems more accurate |
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Posted: Sat, 22 Nov 2008, 12:05am Post subject:
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Almost as bad as that idiot redgrape
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6593
WPP: 74
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| Galapogos wrote: | | IowaSkinsFan wrote: | | Galapogos wrote: | | If you small stakes guys feel you need to call 35% or more 3-bets your game selection needs work. |
Thats not true, at least not always. |
I was generalizing off your generalizing. |
lol nice |
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Posted: Sat, 22 Nov 2008, 2:52am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3558
WPP: 84
Location: right here
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LOL at PT3's way of calculating fold to 3b%
ISF if you use PT3 that would make a lot more sense... |
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Posted: Sat, 22 Nov 2008, 3:25am Post subject:
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Almost as bad as that idiot redgrape
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6593
WPP: 74
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| zook wrote: | LOL at PT3's way of calculating fold to 3b%
ISF if you use PT3 that would make a lot more sense... |
hmmm yeah i do explain this. |
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FTR $200 Freeroll at Bet365Poker, November 22nd @ 15:00 ET
