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Posted: Fri, 06 Jun 2008, 9:47pm Post subject: T9o on button
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 19 Dec 2007
Posts: 102
WPP: 85
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Villain is unknown. I've been pretty aggressive at this table, and got caught bluffing the river a few hands back w/ A high. My concern in this hand is the river...it reeks of a value bet, and quite honestly I don't know what hands c/c, c/c, lead river on a fairly dry board that isn't a monster. Pot odds are pretty good, but I don't think a flush draw is ever making this kind of bet, which is basically the only thing I beat. Is this too nitty?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Hero ($9.95)
SB ($10.25)
BB ($10)
UTG ($5.70)
MP ($9.90)
Preflop: Hero is Button with T , 9 .
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.4, SB calls $0.35, 1 fold.
Flop: ($0.90) 5 , T, 3 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.7, SB calls $0.70.
Turn: ($2.30) 7 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.8, SB calls $1.80.
River: ($5.90) J (2 players)
SB bets $3, Hero folds.
Final Pot: $5.90 |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Jun 2008, 10:25pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 3817
WPP: 142
Location: Ballarat, Australia
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| Errr, busted FDs often make this kind of bet. |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Jun 2008, 10:49pm Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 19 Dec 2007
Posts: 102
WPP: 85
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Ugh, so this is what happens when I take a week off from the game  |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Jun 2008, 11:18pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 717
WPP: 79
Location: Vancouver, BC
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Well 98 got there and JT made two pair.
Timing tell would help a lot here. If he bet the river quickly, then I would probably call. If he tanked before betting, then I would probably fold. |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Jun 2008, 11:41pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 1306
WPP: 104
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| must call river for pot odds |
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Posted: Sat, 07 Jun 2008, 4:35am Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 204
WPP: 124
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| Calling seems break even to me, I can't decide one way or another. I call because we get some info. |
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Posted: Sat, 07 Jun 2008, 7:30am Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17644
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| This hand is fine. Against difficult/erratic opponents I would check the turn behind. |
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Posted: Sat, 07 Jun 2008, 10:34am Post subject:
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Posted: Sat, 07 Jun 2008, 7:08pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 1619
WPP: 56
Location: Looking for my anima
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| DJJunkPauds wrote: | | Calling seems break even to me, I can't decide one way or another. I call because fuck him |
FYP |
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Posted: Sat, 07 Jun 2008, 7:09pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17644
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| mixchange wrote: | | must call river for pot odds |
No |
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Posted: Sat, 07 Jun 2008, 11:07pm Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 19 Dec 2007
Posts: 102
WPP: 85
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| JL wrote: | Well 98 got there and JT made two pair.
Timing tell would help a lot here. If he bet the river quickly, then I would probably call. If he tanked before betting, then I would probably fold. |
His timing if I remember correctly was neither instant nor tankish, so nothing to go by there.
Also, I thought about it a little more, and how often do FDs make a bet like this? They know that they can't beat shit, so wouldn't they bet more to make my decision harder? Idk, I don't think your typical 10NL opponent thinks this deep to "value bet" his bluff. However though, this:
| Quote: |
I call because we get some info.
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sounds completely reasonable, and it's not terribly expensive. But who knows, I may even be overthinking this hand.  |
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Posted: Sun, 08 Jun 2008, 7:09am Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 204
WPP: 124
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| Ash256 wrote: | | DJJunkPauds wrote: | | Calling seems break even to me, I can't decide one way or another. I call because fuck him |
FYP |
That works too. |
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Posted: Sun, 08 Jun 2008, 3:15pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 1445
WPP: 141
Location: GA
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| Fnord wrote: | | This hand is fine. Against difficult/erratic opponents I would check the turn behind. |
pwnage
As an aside, it amazes me how fnord plays much higher limits but still sees to the heart of 10nl villains. A lot of 100nl and 200nl players who critique micro NLH hands on FTR forget how BAD these opponents are. There's a lot of crap hands he might play this way. Calling 1 or 2 streets is fine. By the river, as played, I'm ditching. Like fnord's check behind turn line, too. |
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Posted: Sun, 08 Jun 2008, 9:44pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17644
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| Robb wrote: | | As an aside, it amazes me how fnord plays much higher limits but still sees to the heart of 10nl villains. |
In the $5/$10 $500 game I play they play just as bad as a micro online game without the rocks.
Also, I make most of my money online mixing it up with fish more often than the regs and stealing dead money from the regs who are too busy going for volume to mount a defense. |
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Posted: Sun, 08 Jun 2008, 10:08pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2897
WPP: 112
Location: at your tables, calling your bets
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| Poker is a game about people, it's not about how much money the blinds are. At 10NL you only have to know how to beat fish. At high stakes games you have to know how to play against good players but you still have to know how to beat fish too. |
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Posted: Mon, 09 Jun 2008, 4:15am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 603
WPP: 98
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| mcatdog wrote: | | Poker is a game about people, it's not about how much money the blinds are. At 10NL you only have to know how to beat fish. At high stakes games you have to know how to play against good players but you still have to know how to beat fish too. |
yeah but in most cases a fish with a lot of money is going to think they are a smarter player than a fish w/ no money which in turn makes them kinda easier to play against cuz u can actually figure out what they are thinking. the fish who is broke playing 10nl is probly there for fun more than to win and u cant ever figure out what the hell is going through their head.
players are also a product of the games they regularly play in. if the majority are playing passive, others will follow suit. if the majority are playing crazy aggro they will be tempted to mix it up as well. |
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Posted: Mon, 09 Jun 2008, 4:46am Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17644
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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I disagree, I think their actions SEEM random to successful online middle stake and higher players because they've divorced themselves so far from the weak player mindset, don't see the creature first hand, listen and talk to them about the play of hands. It's just kind of lost in a screen full of numbers.
A few months ago, I played an hour of 1c/2c 6 max just to see how the game played and had such an easy time reading my opponents it was laughable and even enjoyable.
Stronger players are harder to read by definition, because they run somewhat balanced lines, at least on early streets. Also, they play fairly tight, so it's difficult to get a line on thier later street tendencies without a big sample size. It's easier to get a feel for a weaker player because they tend to take their hands too far. |
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Posted: Tue, 10 Jun 2008, 10:31am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 1445
WPP: 141
Location: GA
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| Fnord wrote: | | I disagree, I think their actions SEEM random to successful online middle stake and higher players because they've divorced themselves so far from the weak player mindset, don't see the creature first hand, listen and talk to them about the play of hands. It's just kind of lost in a screen full of numbers. |
This happens sometimes in micro FTR threads where a 100nl player says "do this," and I think "jeez, no way that's the best line, here." And I think they just forgot what it's like to play a game where the smallest mistake wins the hand. But I keep a shortlist of players who (A) can soul read micro villains like fnord or who (B) can see to the heart of my mistakes - not in one individual hand, but how I'm thinking about hands in general that's incorrect. And I read their posts twice. |
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Posted: Tue, 10 Jun 2008, 10:50am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 3089
WPP: 159
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| Fnord wrote: |
Stronger players are harder to read by definition, because they run somewhat balanced lines, at least on early streets. Also, they play fairly tight, so it's difficult to get a line on thier later street tendencies without a big sample size. It's easier to get a feel for a weaker player because they tend to take their hands too far. |
I agree with this completely. I think it's a myth among players who are getting good, but not yet all the way GOOD, that bad players are somehow harder to read and play against. (I have a couple friends for whom this myth is a religion.) Yeah there are some random donks who you can't predict at all, but even those people are easy to play against because they play way too many hands and you can just play level 0 against them all day long and turn a healthy profit. The rest of them are ridiculously transparent, employing stupid little blocking bets when they draw, checking when they miss, rarely bluffing in a way that challenges your gameplan, etc. You play an hour with a table full of those guys and you start wishing that they would all fall into money and start playing bigger stakes. |
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Posted: Tue, 10 Jun 2008, 11:44am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 2116
WPP: 97
Location: Toronto'ish
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| Robb wrote: | | A lot of 100nl and 200nl players who critique micro NLH hands on FTR forget how BAD these opponents are. There's a lot of crap hands he might play this way. |
If they are bad, then we should be barreling our hand MORE often and checking behind the turn LESS often. If they are bad and passive, we should definitely be barreling our hand more, because we can comfortably value bet until we get raised and re-evaluate.
I agree with previous posts that this river call is probably 0ev..but I also like the info we gain even if we're behind. |
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Posted: Tue, 10 Jun 2008, 2:58pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2897
WPP: 112
Location: at your tables, calling your bets
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| Robb wrote: | | This happens sometimes in micro FTR threads where a 100nl player says "do this," and I think "jeez, no way that's the best line, here." And I think they just forgot what it's like to play a game where the smallest mistake wins the hand. |
No. You probably just play a really nitty postflop game and because that's profitable at micro stakes you assume it's optimal. However there are other ways to beat these villains for more money than you currently are.
Don't ignore people's posts just because they clash with your current mindset. Again, what makes you think higher-stakes players forgot how to play against fish? There's a lower proportion of them in our games but we still sit down against them whenever we can. |
Last edited by mcatdog on Tue, 10 Jun 2008, 3:04pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Tue, 10 Jun 2008, 3:04pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 1445
WPP: 141
Location: GA
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| mcatdog wrote: | | Robb wrote: | | This happens sometimes in micro FTR threads where a 100nl player says "do this," and I think "jeez, no way that's the best line, here." And I think they just forgot what it's like to play a game where the smallest mistake wins the hand. |
No. You probably just play a really nitty postflop game and because that's profitable at micro stakes you assume it's optimal. However there are other ways to beat these villains for more money than you currently are. Don't ignore people's posts just because they clash with your current mindset. Again, what makes you think higher-stakes players forgot how to play against fish? There's a lower proportion of them in our games but we still sit down against them whenever we can. |
LoL. |
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Posted: Tue, 10 Jun 2008, 3:15pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17644
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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When your opponents are making big mistakes and/or are easy to read a lot of the rules go out the window.
This is why some people who can destroy a live game get crushed online. Their exploitive approach leaks money. |
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Posted: Tue, 10 Jun 2008, 6:06pm Post subject:
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The FTR333: Dec 13th @ Bodog $300 Money Added Tournament
