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Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 10:31pm Post subject: Rebuys or Freezeouts
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Flush
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 560
WPP: 216
Location: England
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I'd like some experienced advice on which is actually better and why you prefer whichever.
Rebuys mean you're not dead if you get beat but freezeouts should (in theory) cut out a lot of the maniac play of the rebuy period, thus limiting bad beats.
And when you have to budget for 5 - 10 rebuys, why not just enter 5 - 10 freezeouts instead?
Thx |
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Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 11:04pm Post subject: Re: Rebuys or Freezeouts
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Straight Flush
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 7971
WPP: 67
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| Thunder wrote: | I'd like some experienced advice on which is actually better and why you prefer whichever.
Neither is better. Most better players lean to rebuys if they have time because of the deeper stacks
Rebuys mean you're not dead if you get beat but freezeouts should (in theory) cut out a lot of the maniac play of the rebuy period, thus limiting bad beats.
Dealing with 'maniacs' is a crucial skill but you should be happy to have them at your table during the first hour. Bad beats during the RB hour seem much better to me than the ones outside the RB hour. Choosing to play or not play based on the chance to take a bad beat is poor thinking at best. Be happy to get it in good and work on processing it when it doesn't hold
And when you have to budget for 5 - 10 rebuys, why not just enter 5 - 10 freezeouts instead?
Deeper stacks are the biggest reason. Stars and FT are now offering more deep stacks FOs but a year ago the deep stack tourneys were not as common and RBs were a place to find a bigger edge. I used to play almost all RBs but now I play about half and half if the schedule allows.
People will often play poorly during the RB hour and/or not adjust properly afterwards. Also, the play is generally bad compared to the cost because many players who can't afford them play them.
Also, it's fun to relax and play loose for an hour
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Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 11:16pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 560
WPP: 216
Location: England
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Thx.
Just to confirm, at my site, both MTTs start off with 1500 - no deepstacks. Would that make a difference?
Also, what I meant by the bad beats/crazies, is that at the MTTs I have entered (<$10) there are 4 and 5 way all ins. I wouldn't even fancy AA in that situation. That is what I struggle with, and it's so random - with the best hand often being ace rag, lol. |
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Posted: Mon, 31 Dec 2007, 12:26am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 3029
WPP: 115
Location: GO BUCKS!
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| 5 way or full table way, I'm getting it all in with AA. In a rebuy, you will see tons of all ins especially if the buy-in is small. This is just part of the game. Everyone is trying to gain a big stack at all costs. Pay attention to people's shoving ranges and get it in with a hand that plays good against their range. Some just try to look crazy and then set you up and start playing tight. You think they are shoving wide but they change gears and shove tight. So pay attention. |
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Posted: Mon, 31 Dec 2007, 3:32am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 7971
WPP: 67
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Assuming the structure is similar to stars or tilt, yes, 1500 is not deep stacked - their standard is 1500 and the deeps are 3000.
Not wanting to run AA AI pre flop against 4 people is what you have to work through. It's a reasonable response to experience, but it is simply wrong. Have you read The Poker Mindset?
The 'random'ness of AA 4 way is substantially less than the randomness of trying to win tourneys. You'll probably say 'duh' but consider it in terms of your post.
Said another way, if you don't want to put it in with AA 4 ways early on (or anytime excepting extreme ICM spots) , poker probably is not for you, and donkaments for sure are not. |
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Posted: Mon, 31 Dec 2007, 12:07pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 560
WPP: 216
Location: England
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Yeah, I agree with what you are saying though my point about the crazies wasn't about AA. That example was just to say that in a 5 way, AA isn't as strong as against one other.
The point I was trying to make was about the maniacal play in that rebuy period, where it's hard to call a bet/make a raise with anything less than the top 5 hands (eg: JA, KQ, 910, 66, because someone always goes all in, and 3 others follow suit. And then when they flip over, the best hand is just A6! I merely assumed there'd be less of this in freeze outs.
The way I am playing rebuys is any pocket pair JJ+ - my chips are in, regardless. And if its crazy, any ace will do, then I'll consider down to 66+. SO yeah, if I get AA, I'm in every single time.
I am fairly new to MTTs but love them! The pain stings when your KK gets busted by J3 but they're still addictive! |
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Posted: Mon, 31 Dec 2007, 5:03pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 3029
WPP: 115
Location: GO BUCKS!
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| Your comments come across as if you are saying that you would rather play against people that only play big hands than people (crazies) that are getting all their chips in with the worst of it. Is this what you are saying? |
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Posted: Tue, 01 Jan 2008, 2:40pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 560
WPP: 216
Location: England
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No, that's not my intention. In this thread, I am openly wondering whether a freezeout is gonna be less crazy than a rebuy and if so, if it may be easier to play poker rather than bingo.
Eg: In the MTTs I have played, I look down on J10, 66, A10 etc and deem them to be playable depending on position etc. If in late, 2 people go all in before me - and I am not calling an all in with any of these hands in a 3 way. Conversely, if I am in early/middle position, multiple people behind me go all in, and again I am not willing to engage in an all in with these hands. ot against 1 person, let alone 3 or 4.
What I am saying then is that it's hard to see a flop due to all the all ins and premium hands aren't easy to come by. My opps may go all in with Q10, A8 and JK but that doesn't fill me with confidence to follow suit - and so I often feel the need to fold more often than usual because otherwise I am just throwing my chips away by calling/raising as I know some muppet is gonna push.
If I get AA and these crazies push with Q6, I will push every time, even though my odds of winning are reduced because there can be 4 of us in the mix. And as a result, I am happy to play these crazies. It's just when I don't have a strong hand that it can be extremely hard to get a look in. |
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Posted: Tue, 01 Jan 2008, 6:52pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 3173
WPP: 88
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
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| Yes your odds of winning are reduce but - and this is the point you're missing - when you do win, you win 4 times as much! And considering it's a rebuy period, it doesn't really matter if you lose the hand. |
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Posted: Tue, 01 Jan 2008, 8:47pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 3029
WPP: 115
Location: GO BUCKS!
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| Also, make a limit that you are willing to loose in the rebuy hour before you just call it quits and stop rebuying. If you are not able to afford at least 7 buy-ins then you probably shouldn't play a rebuy. If you are not able to stand the variance in the first hour, then a rebuy is not for you. If you decide to play a rebuy, don't be that guy that complains the whole time and points out how stupid people are. |
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Posted: Tue, 01 Jan 2008, 8:59pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 560
WPP: 216
Location: England
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| biondino wrote: | | Yes your odds of winning are reduce but - and this is the point you're missing - when you do win, you win 4 times as much! And considering it's a rebuy period, it doesn't really matter if you lose the hand. |
I am not missing any point. Which is why I stated I will push everytime and am very happy to do so.
All I have been saying is that it can be hard to even see a flop due to the pre flop pressure. And considering that in his guide, Char says he plays loose and sees about 50% of the hands in this period, I find it hard to get anywhere close to that.
As it stands right now, with my limited experience of MTTs, both have their pros and cons. And right now, I like the fact that rebuys allow you to recover from a bad beat or a 50/50 call. Plus the prize pool goes up! |
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