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Posted: Sat, 03 Jul 2004, 8:15am Post subject: Question about betting and raising with premium hands.
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High Card
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 5
WPP: 154
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Hey I'm new to the forum and this is my first post so I figured I'd give a little background before my question.
I pay in a lot of home tournaments with about 7-8 people. I am familiar with hand rankings and when to play hands based on position.
I have trouble finding the right amount to bet when I have a premium top ten hand. I try to bet 5xBB but that usually scares everyone away and I'll just win blinds. But when I go lower than that I get too many callers. You don't want too many callers going heads up with a high pocker pair do you? I try to keep my betting style the same regardless of what I have because keeping my opening bets the same it would be harder for other players to read what I have.
Also after there flop has hit, how much would be a good bet to get rid of chashers if you pair your top card and there's a possible straight or flush on the board? |
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Posted: Sat, 03 Jul 2004, 8:47am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 1887
WPP: 103
Location: Kansas City
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There are a few different ways to determine the size of your bet. How big you bet is compared to the pot size, how big your bet is compared to the big blind, how big your bet is compared to your opponents stack and just plain old, how much money.
compared to the big blind is usually discussed pre-flop. I don't feel that keeping the raise size the same is always a good idea. I'm sure some will dissagree. You want to limp in with some hands, you want to raise with others, and you want to raise bigger with a few. I will raise big with AA or AQ or AK (about 4XBB) I will raise bigger with KK, QQ, JJ because I hate being out-drawn and I'd rather earn the blinds (raising about 5-10X BB depending on the table)
Compared to the pot size is usually talked about post flop, and is always talked about in limit poker. With top pair over kicker or trips, and a possible straight or flush on the board, I might bet 1-2X the pot. I have to scare the flush / straight draw out of there. With top pair over kicker and no flush or straight, I might bet 1/2 the pot, as a value move. I want to judge what others have, and 1/4 - 1/2 the pot is a good amount for others to call, if they have a hand, but get rid of people who missed their flop. You also look at bets compared to the pot when you are figuring out pot odds. The most important thing to learn about pot odds is to keep other people out of them.
Compared to other peoples stacks is talked about in tourament play mostly. If you have a smaller stack, approach this cautiously. Your opponent may make a bad call to try and get you out. He may just apply leverage to get you to fold. Remember this, you usually have to bet more as a small stack against a big stack, and less as a big stack against a small stack, to get the same result.
When you are playing at home, this is the most common time to consider the amount of money as your bet size. Online no one handles chips, and only plays with depositied money. They have already chose to gamble with this money and aren't afraid of bet amounts. At home, the money is still tangible. They can hold it, or the chips, and dollars count. A lot of people feel that it's not about how much is in the pot, it is how much THEY put in the pot, and how much this bet is. Example: I bet $1 and 8 people call. I bet $2 and 6 people call. The pot has $23 in it. But if I come in with a $5 bet, I could scare out people. This is less than 1/4 size of the pot, but they see it as five whole dollars, not $5 to win $23 (more likely $50 after the betting is over) Though their reasoning is flawed, and you shouldn't play this way, you can read and learn and play on their weaknesses.
Sorry to dissapoint, but there is a lot of consider when you make a bet. First, get in the right frame of mind. Then think what you are wanting to do. Bet small to judge what others have / increase the pot when you have a great hand and want a lot of callers. Bet middle when you have a good, hand, and you want callers, but not as many (You have a better chance of winning a hand head-to-head than if you are in a 6-way pot) and bet big when you want to get others out. Most important, switch all of these around at random times to make yourself less predictable. |
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Posted: Thu, 15 Jul 2004, 7:33am Post subject:
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High Card
Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 9
WPP: 109
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| Humph makes good sense. I would add that allowing someone to draw to you without the pure nuts is risky business. If you do bet big (tournament play) you get what is there ..... 10 is worth more than -10 if someone draws out on you. Position, the Gap, stack size are all important but also as Humph implied....if you vary your play you will get some good callers on monster cards and also be able to come in with semibluffs/bluffs and steal some.... |
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Posted: Thu, 15 Jul 2004, 11:41am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 1720
WPP: 297
Location: Rochester Hills, MI
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| randommetalguy wrote: | | I have trouble finding the right amount to bet when I have a premium top ten hand. I try to bet 5xBB but that usually scares everyone away and I'll just win blinds. ... I try to keep my betting style the same regardless of what I have because keeping my opening bets the same it would be harder for other players to read what I have. |
So wait, you keep your preflop raises the same, but you only win the blinds with your premium hands? It sounds like a contradiction. If you really do always raise the same amount with every big hand, and you usually pick up the blinds with that raise, then start doing it a lot more often and either it'll soften them up to your big bets, or you'll be able to steal a ridiculous amount of blinds. Once they loosen up to your 5x BB bet, then you could go back to only using it for your very best hands.
| Humphrind wrote: | | With top pair over kicker or trips, and a possible straight or flush on the board, I might bet 1-2X the pot. I have to scare the flush / straight draw out of there. |
Actually, on those audio lessons I linked to (I believe lesson 12), Caro strongly recommends against doing this. He says you should actually be wanting the flush draw to be calling you against odds, so therefore shouldn't even be betting the size of the pot (unless you know they'll call that). Of course you shouldn't give them pot odds, but he thinks you should bet an amount that you think the chaser will call against the pot odds (which he recommends as being below the size of the pot - definitely way below 2x the pot by his advice).
And really, I've noticed that pros do this. Of course, they don't deal with the level of chasers that we do online, but still, the point is that they want the chasing, they just aren't going to give odds to them. In the long run (even over the course of one multitable tourney), this should be very profitable, especially if you can lay your hand down once you know they've hit their draw. Since their chasing itself should be profitable to you, it should be more profitable to price them in than taking down a pot at the flop.
I think its kind of the same thing with KK, QQ, JJ. Bet big before the flop, but not to the point where they won't call you. You should want more than the blinds I think, just be ready to fold if you don't hit a set and an overcard hits the board (or the betting is insane on the flop - i.e. in that hand history posted recently with AA losing to KK and QQ, who both hit sets on the flop).
I think for some reason we're trained to believe (early on when playing Holdem) that if you have a high pocket pair, you are going to win the hand barring a horrible beat, and therefore we can't lay it down and get pissed everytime they get beat. If we were able to lay them down more often, it wouldn't hurt so much when they lose, and we'd make more money on them in the long run.
Also, now that I think of it, betting huge preflop (i.e. 10 times the BB)with QQ and JJ is kind of counter productive as well. The only hands that'll likely call you have a coin flip with you, if they don't dominate you (AA, KK, AK), where it'd probably be best to have other hands call you, but then fold to your big bet at the flop, with your overpair when the flop hits rather low. Or again, they could chase without odds, which should still be profitable in the long run.
I know thinking about playing like this sounds scary, as you do risk more beats. But then again, if we bet less (instead of trying to scare out a draw), we should lose to bad beats more often, but win a lot bigger pots when we have the hands. Plus, the bad beats we do get by people chasing against odds shouldn't hurt us near as much as they did when we were trying too hard to bet them out of a draw, since the bets aren't as big anymore (again assuming we can lay our hand down when we've likely been outdrawn). |
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Posted: Thu, 15 Jul 2004, 1:03pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1277
WPP: 105
Location: Drowning in prosperity
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| michael1123 wrote: | Actually, on those audio lessons I linked to (I believe lesson 12), Caro strongly recommends against doing this. He says you should actually be wanting the flush draw to be calling you against odds, so therefore shouldn't even be betting the size of the pot (unless you know they'll call that). Of course you shouldn't give them pot odds, but he thinks you should bet an amount that you think the chaser will call against the pot odds (which he recommends as being below the size of the pot - definitely way below 2x the pot by his advice).
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This is such good advice. Couple this with the fact that many players misunderstand their pot odds (thinking they need only 1.85:1 to chase a draw after the flop when they really need about 4:1 to see the turn and they'll have to call another bet if they miss) and you could make a lot of 1/2 pot bets that would be called by chasers, making you money.
| Quote: | Also, now that I think of it, betting huge preflop (i.e. 10 times the BB)with QQ and JJ is kind of counter productive as well. The only hands that'll likely call you have a coin flip with you, if they don't dominate you (AA, KK, AK), where it'd probably be best to have other hands call you, but then fold to your big bet at the flop, with your overpair when the flop hits rather low. Or again, they could chase without odds, which should still be profitable in the long run.
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This is a lesson I have learned from playing limit. I hear a lot of people complain about getting rivered by chasers with big PP in limit, but the pots that you win with them are just so much bigger when you consider the ratio of money you put in to the size of the pots you win. Who cares if you lose half the time if you win four times your investment when you get paid off.
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I know thinking about playing like this sounds scary, as you do risk more beats. But then again, if we bet less (instead of trying to scare out a draw), we should lose to bad beats more often, but win a lot bigger pots when we have the hands. Plus, the bad beats we do get by people chasing against odds shouldn't hurt us near as much as they did when we were trying too hard to bet them out of a draw, since the bets aren't as big anymore (again assuming we can lay our hand down when we've likely been outdrawn). |
Great point! Many poker players focus too much on winning or losing the hand, only wondering about the pot size after the hand is over. Instead of focusing on winning or losing with a big PP, the focus should be on maximizing winnings and minimizing losses with those hands. A lot of players (myself included) are only really comfortable doing this with a monster, but it would really be beneficial to learn to size bets in a way to coax players along at -EV when you are ahead but vulnerable. |
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Posted: Thu, 15 Jul 2004, 4:34pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 1064
WPP: 108
Location: San Francisco
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| Humphrind wrote: | | When you are playing at home, this is the most common time to consider the amount of money as your bet size. Online no one handles chips, and only plays with depositied money. They have already chose to gamble with this money and aren't afraid of bet amounts. At home, the money is still tangible. They can hold it, or the chips, and dollars count. A lot of people feel that it's not about how much is in the pot, it is how much THEY put in the pot, and how much this bet is. Example: I bet $1 and 8 people call. I bet $2 and 6 people call. The pot has $23 in it. But if I come in with a $5 bet, I could scare out people. This is less than 1/4 size of the pot, but they see it as five whole dollars, not $5 to win $23 (more likely $50 after the betting is over) Though their reasoning is flawed, and you shouldn't play this way, you can read and learn and play on their weaknesses. |
Hump, thats an excellent point. I play my home game with beginners who have no concept whatsoever of pot odds. I learned very quickly that their decision to call or fold is based only on how big the bet is and how big their stack is (yes, I think those 2 factors are more important to them than what cards they have). The example you gave sums it up perfectly. |
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