PP 10+1. KQ 4 handed.

#Game No : 2961971329
***** Hand History for Game 2961971329 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:17038630 Level:6 Blinds(100/200) - Monday, October 31, 22:51:58 EDT 2005
Table Table 71541 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: IModFTR ( $1445 )
Seat 6: VinnyV76 ( $1645 )
Seat 8: dying8towin ( $1235 )
Seat 9: rickcouns1 ( $3675 )
Trny:17038630 Level:6
Blinds(100/200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to IModFTR [ Kh Qc ]
IModFTR is all-In [1445]

Do you push?

it depends for me on the table. your putting alot of pressure on Ax hands and low pocket pairs and if i think theyll gamble with me i probably wont since i know im 99% of the time behind when called. a tight table though ill push and expect to pick up the blinds easily. i think i make this play more often then i dont, but it does depend for me.

yea i push that.

you should run the numbers on this one gabe.
I thought it was an obvious push...

I push

Easy push.

if their calling ranges are 66+, ATs+, AJo+, then the push is neutral EV.

seeing as how most $11s on party are probably looser than this, it is most likely a -EV push.

This is a topic I really dont understand probably due to my inexperience.
Why push a hand that could potentially cripple you?
What's the point of putting your tournament at risk just to pick up blinds?

Especially at this level, you'll get all kinds of people calling with Ax, any pocket pair. I dont see the point in taking the risk.

if you are going to include JTo, you gotta include alot more aces than just ATo, but thats beside the point

if you are more likely to get called, and you are behind most of the time, it is still -ev.

Why push a hand that could potentially cripple you? because you need to pick up the blinds. you only have 7 of them in your stack and the structure of the tournament means they are going to be up going up again soon.

What's the point of putting your tournament at risk just to pick up blinds?
with only 4 people left, people are playing scared. they all want to make the money. this is the best time to pick up lots of pots (because people are scared) so that you have a nice sized stack when you get ITM, and then you can fight for first place.

Yes, I didnt notice at first there were only 4 people left.
Aggression is definitely a part of my game I need to work at.

KQ four handed is strong, few hands have you dominated and I hate to bring M into this but its not even 5. Remember we are playing to win not to make the money. I still think its a marginal fold or push (starting to lean towards fold) but its definitely not clear cut.

hmmmmm - I would have thought this was a good push - four handed - for me I can't find a fold here.

Wow, I thought this was a pretty easy push, but it doesnt seem so correct as I thought.
So, am I right about that the following factors combined leads to a fold in this situation:

1) KQ isnt so strong a hand as it looks like - you are mostly a little behind when it comes to a race

2) your position UTG

3) you dont have the shortest stack at the table.

4) your position relative to the other shortstacks at the table

5) the calling standard for normal players in the 10s at PP is loose

Any other things to consider?

OK, I just ran the math on this to PROVE it to you. BTW, I've run this about 10 times before.

If we assume the calling ranges of Button and SB are 66+, ATs+, AJo+ AND we assume Bigstack range is 44+, A7s+, A9o+, KJs+, the results of the $EV analysis is -
-0.4%.

By the way, if I change the stacks so that our hero has the 1235 stack, and push from here, it is still only marginally +$EV. The answer is:
+0.1%

Do you also use those SNG power tools to do these calculations? Not because I think your results are wrong but I would like to see someone do all the calculations step by step and see how they get to the result.

i thought this was a no brainer?
unless of course you have pushed 6 hands straight in which case ace high calls and you're behind but id still push without a thought

I say push, KQ is prob the best you will see in a few hands.

On a side note last SnG I played 4 left I was like 1k in chips, I went all-in PF with 77 got called by a KQ who rivered a K.

my push here depends on my image. if i have a tight image and have shown good hands and haven't got stealing with crap then i probably push here because the calling range will be smaller, they will fold their ace,rag and low pairs more giving you the edge you need. also depends on your opponents and how scared you think they are to bust and how fishy you think they are. these marginal +/- EV pushes should be made or not made based on factors that we cannot determine from looking at your hand history.

also, where can i find sng power tools, what are all of the features of it, and is it free?

Put it into sng analyzer and its -Ev unless they all only call w/ 66+ ATs+ AJo+ at which point it is a break even push.

well taking a neutral EV situation now could lead to more + EV later. some people (gigabet is the one that comes to mind) even take -EV situations because they believe it will amount to enough +EV later to make up for the -EV now. so i suppose if you think you can gain enough EV later from picking up chips from stealing or winning an all-in as a slight underdog then i think you should push a neutral EV situation like this. if when you do get lucky enough to steal blinds or double, you can't use your stack to your advantage to bully the other stacks and get into situations where you have more positive EV, then you should probably just fold the neutral EV situation. try to keep in mind your future EV in situations like this, it isn't something that can be calculated like shoving QK vs a specific calling range so you need to estimate for yourself.

good thread...i would normally push this without thinking about it.

*Last edited by Scuba Chuck on Wed, 02 Nov 2005, 5:48am; edited 1 time in total*

I just wanted to emphasize that I think our calling range is either too tight, or just right. Big stacks call with a very wide range. I have been called with K8s, and QJo. Here, Big Stack had ducks....

***** Hand History for Game 2967983507 *****
150/300 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 17070739) - Wed Nov 02 03:19:05 EST 2005
Table Table 67242 (Real Money) -- Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 1: Sirjenowic (3352)
Seat 6: Scuba_Chuck (930)
Seat 7: hartless7 (2638)
Seat 8: ElRubioX (1080)
ElRubioX posts small blind (75)
Sirjenowic posts big blind (150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ 8h, 6c ]
Scuba_Chuck folds.
hartless7 folds.
ElRubioX raises (1005) to 1080
ElRubioX is all-In.
Sirjenowic calls (930)
Creating Main Pot with $2160 with ElRubioX
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Qd, Qc, 5d ]
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2h ]
** Dealing River ** : [ 7s ]
** Summary **
Main Pot: 2160 |
Board: [ Qd Qc 5d 2h 7s ]
Sirjenowic balance 4432, bet 1080, collected 2160, net +1080 [ 2s 2c ] [ a full house, Twos full of queens -- Qd,Qc,2s,2c,2h ]
Scuba_Chuck balance 930, didn't bet (folded)
hartless7 balance 2638, didn't bet (folded)
ElRubioX balance 0, lost 1080 [ As Qs ] [ three of a kind, queens -- As,Qs,Qd,Qc,7s ]

If its -EV to push here when you are called then is this not just a case where you are stealing the blinds and don't want a call.

I don't understand how someone in VQC's situation in the original post is going to fold - i understand when u say it is -EV move but sometimes in poker u have to gambol.

With his stack size he is in Push/Fold mode - if he does not push with KQo then he is likely to be blinded out IMO. As the big hands don't come along that often sometimes you just don't get them at all.

It would be good to hear from the people who play at the high stakes SnG - on what they would do here.

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PP 10+1. KQ 4 handed.

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PP 10+1. KQ 4 handed.