pot lost on technicality (know the rules!)

Saw this at a 1/2NL table yesterday:

A guy at my table would have chopped the pot with Ace high (both had kickers lower than the board). He only turned over the Ace, however, and the dealer quickly and silently mucked his hand. His cards were slightly over the bet line, but it was plainly obvious that he expected to chop the pot but didn't want to show his crappy kicker.

The floor was called, and the dealer lied and said he actively threw his hand into the muck. Everyone at the table had an opinion, of course. The winner of the pot vociferously refused to chop since he was already declared the winner and had the chips: "He mucked his hand!" It was a ~$100 pot, and I think he should have sent over $50.

The guy who had his hand mucked left with one of the managers to review the tapes. But they wouldn't take any money from the "winner" since the pot had already been shipped over to him. I think they ended up comping him some $ on his players card.

Granted, his hand was dead according to the rules: you do have to show two cards to win a hand. I think the dealer messed up, though. He should have asked him to turn over the other card.

Moral of the story: show two cards to win, and protect your hand until you have your money! After this, I think I may even start capping my cards after turning them over!

Actually, the rule as I understand it is to win the hand, you must show BOTH cards. In home games, it is a HUGE pet peeve of mine for someone to show only one card trying to hide information that has been paid for. That's exactly what the guy @ the game you described was trying to do and it cost him.

At my home game, I have a handful of rules posted and #1 is "When a hand reaches showdown, you must show BOTH cards to win the pot". I still have to remind players from time to time. When the dealer said he mucked in your example, he didn't necessarily mean that the card went into the muck pile per se, but that he simply didn't turn it over. Not turning your cards over counts as mucking it if you move it forward like chips @ showdown. I have heard of this situation happening before and the dealer didn't ask the player to turn it over - that's not his/her responsibility.

The moral of the story is that, YES, you absolutely need to turn over both cards @ showdown because it's the rule. Furthermore, you should never relinquish your cards until the hand has ended in a way that you agree with. I have heard of a player who was giving her WINNING cards face down because she thought everyone had folded, but the chips had not been pushed to her yet. The dealer ALMOST gave the chips to someone else who had said they folded but had kept their cards. Fortunately, it was resolved in her favor but it almost cost her. The main point for that is she should have kept her cards until the chips were given to her. So, show your cards when you're supposed to and don't give your cards away until you have the chips or are truly folding Smile

If he was trying to win the pot without showing his hand, he deserves what he got.

If he honestly didn't know the rule and didn't realizing that showing one card is a muck, a sympathetic floorman MIGHT (but is not required to) award him half the pot.

Being able to tell the difference between 1 and 2 is why it's tough to be a good floorman.

And yes, if you want to avoid this problem, just table your freaking hand. The truth is, at all but the highest levels, you are getting more EV from tabling your hands and occasionally avoiding losing a pot because you didn't follow the rules or you didn't realize you had the best hand than you are losing by giving out information. Not that many players process information anyway.

yeah, he learnt the hard way

it's kinda an unfortunate situation here, but i understand all sides:

-sucks for the guy because he figured, all it takes is the ace to be rewarded the pot, so why did he need to show both? you should know the rules, but it's tough to stomach losing 50 dollars over that sorta thing

-i totally understand the rules because information is money in poker, and if the opponent paid what he had to pay to get to the river, then he has the advantage of two things: 1) having an opportunity at winning the pot and 2) if he doesn't, then he is guaranteed at seeing what the opponent beat him with, and knowing that someone, for example, called a PFR out of the blinds with A2o, is actually an indirect monetary consolance for having to chop the pot

- i totally understand what the dealer did because as was mentioned, he cannot not not tell someone at the table how to play their hand. if someone makes a gesture that is technically a muck, he cannot tell him "dawg, are you really gonna muck a hand that wins a share of the pot?" that would be a 50x's worse offense than to have to play bad cop and muck the hand. and he also can't wait there all day staring down the guy waiting for him to catch the mistake. i'm sure he prolly hesitated, gave him a look and ultimately had to muck the hand.

-i think we can all understand the opponent in the hand being stubborn about "he mucked the hand, i win the pot." this game's about winning money, and as much as everyone's there for the competitive nature and to have fun and get some drinks and so forth, it's obviously -EV to play mr nice guy when there's 25bb at stake

50 bucks was a cheap lesson...

I never, ever let go of my winning hand -- face up, face down, or otherwise -- until AFTER the dealer pushes me the chips.

Sometimes a bad dealer will fuck up and push the chips in the wrong direction. The only way to prove he fucked up is if you retain possession of the winning cards.

ChezJ

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pot lost on technicality (know the rules!)

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pot lost on technicality (know the rules!)