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Posted: Sat, 03 Jul 2004, 5:41pm Post subject: Narrowing possible opponent hand ranges.
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Straight

Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 122 WPP: 180
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I know this is a fairly common problem. You're at an NL table, ring game, tournament, whatever, and you have like 6 opponents who you cannot put on a hand, because they will not raise, ever. (This is a horrible strategy, imho, they are just asking to eat large amounts of poo slowplaying all the time...but then sometimes it pays off if there's a river-maniac at the table.)
In short, you just can't put these stones on a hand. They could have anything from a boat, to rags (which they have most of the time, except the one time you bet). What's the best way to protect yourself from them? How can you read their hand?
The question is, do you tend to try and gain information from these players (raising, check raising), or is it simply better to go on outdrawing them and winning small river pots, and getting knocked around by the occassional river monster.
I'm aware that the prevailing advice is to leave tight ring games in favor of looser ones, but sometimes you just don't have that option. |
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Posted: Sat, 03 Jul 2004, 6:01pm Post subject: Re: Narrowing possible opponent hand ranges.
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 1887 WPP: 103
Location: Kansas City
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| Manomanman wrote: | I know this is a fairly common problem. You're at an NL table, ring game, tournament, whatever, and you have like 6 opponents who you cannot put on a hand, because they will not raise, ever. (This is a horrible strategy, imho, they are just asking to eat large amounts of poo slowplaying all the time...but then sometimes it pays off if there's a river-maniac at the table.)
In short, you just can't put these stones on a hand. They could have anything from a boat, to rags (which they have most of the time, except the one time you bet). What's the best way to protect yourself from them? How can you read their hand?
The question is, do you tend to try and gain information from these players (raising, check raising), or is it simply better to go on outdrawing them and winning small river pots, and getting knocked around by the occassional river monster.
I'm aware that the prevailing advice is to leave tight ring games in favor of looser ones, but sometimes you just don't have that option. |
Forgive me for misunderstanding the situation, but it sounds like you are asking if you should give in and play just like them? The answer is always no.
The general rule is, play loose in a tight game and tight in a loose game. This sound like the ideal situation to play tight in.
Out of the 3 general types of players: maniacs, rocks and calling stations, You say the people never raise, but it sounds like they always call (calling station) but you also say the table is very tight, (rocks) I'm thinking it sounds more like calling stations, so I'll go on assuming that for this entire post.
Never bluff, don't try to out-draw. If you have a flush draw, and it can get checked around the board, let it. Get your made hand before you bet, because you will have a lot of callers, and a lot of opportunity for someone to have a better hand.
Once you have a hand, bet big. It sounds like you will have callers to almost every bet you make. Lose small on the hands that you lose, and win big on the hands that you win. That's the beauty of calling stations.
If this is a table full of calling stations, you have found a great table where you can easily win a lot of money. If it were me I wouldn't even consider looking for another table. Just play wisely. |
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Posted: Sat, 03 Jul 2004, 6:46pm Post subject:
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Strike 3

Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 2223 WPP: 4
Location: Sacramento
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Posted: Tue, 06 Jul 2004, 8:17am Post subject: Re: Narrowing possible opponent hand ranges.
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Royal Flush

Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17644 WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| Humphrind wrote: |
The general rule is, play loose in a tight game and tight in a loose game. This sound like the ideal situation to play tight in.
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Popular myth. You need to play more correct than your opponents. In a loose game, play more hands because you can do so while still maintaining a pre-flop edge. Also, in mult-pots drawing hands gain considerable value. Against tight players, you can't do much once they decide to play a hand. You need to attack other angles (folds too much, overplays a missed flop, etc.) and attack their blinds. |
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Posted: Tue, 06 Jul 2004, 9:34am Post subject: Re: Narrowing possible opponent hand ranges.
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 02 Apr 2004
Posts: 1522 WPP: 82
Location: England UK
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| Fnord wrote: | | Popular myth. |
It's not exactly a Myth, you need to tighten up in the aspect of certain hands go down in value "A9o" and other hands go up in value "A3s". The reason being that you need a bigger hand to win the pot at showdown.
KJ / AT offsuit for instance will most likely need 2 pair or more to win in a loose game opposed to a normal game, these could be folded pre-flop.
I think playing tigher and looser will both be +EV because at the end of the day you are still playing bad players.
Also it is not always right to play loose in a tight game but super tight can be profitable, your hands will always be slightly better than theres . . . |
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Posted: Tue, 06 Jul 2004, 10:39am Post subject: Re: Narrowing possible opponent hand ranges.
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Royal Flush

Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17644 WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| Toasty wrote: |
It's not exactly a Myth, you need to tighten up in the aspect of certain hands go down in value "A9o" and other hands go up in value "A3s". The reason being that you need a bigger hand to win the pot at showdown.
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True, but there are more T9s, A3s and 22ish hands than KJoish hands. You're not playing that stuff outside of the blinds and then best positions in a tight game anyway.
| Toasty wrote: |
I think playing tigher and looser will both be +EV because at the end of the day you are still playing bad players.
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Looser is higher +EV, but more variance up to a point. It also depends on how bad the play is relative to the rake. Tighter is lower variance.
| Toasty wrote: |
Also it is not always right to play loose in a tight game but super tight can be profitable, your hands will always be slightly better than theres . . . |
At some point you're flat not seeing enough flops with good hands. |
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Posted: Tue, 06 Jul 2004, 5:53pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 1887 WPP: 103
Location: Kansas City
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I firmly believe that Fnord is right. You can easily make a profit at any game by playing more correctly than the other people.
However, I still stand by my belief. Loose at tight games and tight at loose games. I'm using logic to work this out and I'll explain myself.
Loose games:
You are playing against a lot of people who will see a lot of flops and call a lot of bets. You bide your time. The chances that you will get a great hand are very slim, because more people will see the flop. But when you do get your great hand, you will be able to get away with raising big and getting callers. Your pots will be much bigger,and when you stay tight, you won't loose much money when you don't play.
Tight games:
People here won't see as many flops. You won't have much action pre-flop so you can limp in with a lot of hands and try and catch flops. You can bluff people out more and steal blinds. The pots that you win will be smaller, but there should be a lot of them.
2 things to look out for when playing these:
1. Play well. Nothing will improve a game that you are playing weak or sloppy.
2. You will change the way a table plays. If you are ultra-tight, you will probably be earning respect with every fold and people will notice after a while. It's possible that you will get a few "respect" pots. You may also loosen up a tight table as you stay at it and use the same strategy. If this happens, you need to adjust your game. When people notice how you have loosened up, switch back to tight and vice-versa.
The most important thing is to realize what your opponent expects of you, and disappoint them.
Either Fnord's way, or this way will work out for the better. This is just giving a little extra edge in my opinion. |
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Posted: Tue, 06 Jul 2004, 11:58pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush

Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17644 WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| Humphrind wrote: |
Loose games:
You are playing against a lot of people who will see a lot of flops and call a lot of bets. You bide your time. The chances that you will get a great hand are very slim, because more people will see the flop. But when you do get your great hand, you will be able to get away with raising big and getting callers. Your pots will be much bigger,and when you stay tight, you won't loose much money when you don't play.
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More like you sit and wait for your Aces, then post a long rant when one of the 5 other guys that saw the flop hits two pair with T8o.
| Humphrind wrote: |
Tight games:
People here won't see as many flops. You won't have much action pre-flop so you can limp in with a lot of hands and try and catch flops. You can bluff people out more and steal blinds. The pots that you win will be smaller, but there should be a lot of them.
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Depends on the type of tight player. TAg, will make you fold and pay off a lot of second best hands.
BTW, this isn't some crazy "fnord" way. It's in Theory of Poker. |
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Posted: Thu, 09 Sep 2004, 3:54pm Post subject:
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Full House

Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 1132 WPP: 109
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
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| Fnord wrote: | | Depends on the type of tight player. TAg, will make you fold and pay off a lot of second best hands. |
Agree on this point. Prior to this qualification, the big buckets (loose/tight) made my head hurt. In my games, most of my key decisions are post-flop. The added dimension of passive/aggressive is important to obtain post-flop reads and tactics. |
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