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$16, AK vs UTG raise

  
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fjuanl
Post Posted: Wed, 11 Jun 2008, 3:20am    Post subject: $16, AK vs UTG raise Reply with quote
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Villian has an ave. ROI of 7% thru 4k games, which were mostly at the $16's. Is there any other way to play this? What are you doing if villian shoves a river blank?

Poker Stars $15+$1 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 7 players

SB: t1310
BB: t1440
UTG: t1410
UTG+1: t3320
MP: t1470
Hero (CO): t1480
BTN: t3070

Pre Flop: Hero is CO with KDiamond AHeart
UTG raises to t80, 2 folds, Hero calls t80, 2 folds, BB calls t60

Flop: (t250) KHeart 2Spade 2Heart (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets t200, Hero calls t200, BB folds

Turn: (t650) 5Club (2 players)
UTG bets t400, Hero calls t400

River: (t1450) QHeart (2 players)
UTG bets t730 all in, Hero folds
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bjsaust
Post Posted: Wed, 11 Jun 2008, 3:31am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Ummm, I dunno. I get your thinking, but this kinda feels like the worst way to play it. I probably just get it in on the flop if you're going to play.
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fjuanl
Post Posted: Wed, 11 Jun 2008, 3:43am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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It seemed to me that I was either way ahead or way behind on the flop. I have the Ah, which means villian's chances of a flushdraw are nil. If I raise the flop, I'm only getting action from AK or better, which is pretty bad. If I just flat I might get some more value later on from QQ/JJ etc
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taipan168
Post Posted: Wed, 11 Jun 2008, 5:53am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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I like the way you played the flop, since you will often induce Villain to fire a second barrel with hands you beat.

Now that you got that, I shove over on the turn in case he's semi-bluffing a flush draw or betting an underpair to kings. At this point the only plausible hand that beats you is AA, if he has that I pay him.
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Phantaroth
Post Posted: Wed, 11 Jun 2008, 7:17am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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With the way you played it I wouldn't fold, and as taipan said I'd move in before the river. Turn looks good.
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taipan168
Post Posted: Wed, 11 Jun 2008, 7:22am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Actually on reflection, a FD is pretty unlikely since the AHeart is on board so any hand that opp has is unlikely to have more than 2-3 outs on the river so we don't need to protect our hand.

That said, if we want to take this line I think we need to call the river. Sure, QQ and KQ now beat us but if we think a FD is unlikely then we have to pay them if that's what they have.
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GatorJH
Post Posted: Wed, 11 Jun 2008, 8:28am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Villain bets enough on every street to deny FD so I think you can discount that. Any PP lower than AA, or possibly QQ would have either checked the turn and river (hoping to check the hand down) or would have pushed the turn to maximize fold equity).

IMO, Either this is an extremely well played bluff or villains range is narrowed to AA, KK, QQ, or KQ with a slight possibility of JJ or TT. I think you have to fold on this river.

Oh, and btw, in game time I prolly would have just shoved the turn although I don't know how much FE you would have had with villains stack being so short.
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Im_new
Post Posted: Wed, 11 Jun 2008, 9:36am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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I shove the turn.
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fjuanl
Post Posted: Wed, 11 Jun 2008, 12:06pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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I think I agree about calling the river if I'm calling the turn. Looking back I think folding the turn is best because I'm either splitting with AK or its AA/KK. Since I know villian is a winning player over a decent sample, I really don't think we can include any other hands. Winning multitablers arent 2-barrelling QQ against an unknown here
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TLR
Post Posted: Wed, 11 Jun 2008, 3:35pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Sorry, but I think you played this hand very badly, if the range you put villian on is AA/KK/QQ because he is a decent player and raises from UTG then you should fold preflop. Once you called preflop and hit your hand you have to play it.

I would not flat call the flop as well, while the flop is a good one for you there is a FD and the BB is still in the pot, I would reraise flop here, I dont like giving a free card to two opponents here.
I definitly shove over the turn
As played call the river, there is no sense in calling the turn and folding the river, you have to put him on exactly KQ/QQ in order for this play to make sense
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mukaka
Post Posted: Thu, 12 Jun 2008, 8:10am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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His range might include some lower pairs and AQ-AJ hands but by turn it's obvious by his second barrel that he has AA-KK-AK maybe KQ but I don't think he'd raise KQ pre..

I think it wouldn't be too bad if you folded on the turn..
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TLR
Post Posted: Thu, 12 Jun 2008, 8:16am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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mukaka wrote:
His range might include some lower pairs and AQ-AJ hands but by turn it's obvious by his second barrel that he has AA-KK-AK maybe KQ but I don't think he'd raise KQ pre..

I think it wouldn't be too bad if you folded on the turn..
Why do you assume 1st barrel is c-bet and 2nd barrel isn't ? IF he puts hero on FD he has every reason to bet again
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CoccoBill
Post Posted: Thu, 12 Jun 2008, 1:28pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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+1 TLR. With your read either fold pf or reraise flop, call river.
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mukaka
Post Posted: Fri, 13 Jun 2008, 4:14am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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TLR wrote:
Why do you assume 1st barrel is c-bet and 2nd barrel isn't ? IF he puts hero on FD he has every reason to bet again


why do you assume he's putting him on a FD and firing again? If I was him and had missed the flop I would stop here thinking he has a Kx or a pair as I believe most of the multi-tabling regs do since the turn also didn't help us at all..
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DetroitHusling101
Post Posted: Fri, 13 Jun 2008, 6:42pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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meh depends on the reg.
just because they are a winning player doesn't mean were beat on the turn and my default would be to shove it
if you wanna out the regs name i'd give my honest opinon , (if i've played w/ them before). but in general theres only a handfull of regs i'm folding to , and in which case i'd fold the turn.
if we call the turn i think we have to call the river.
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mukaka
Post Posted: Sat, 14 Jun 2008, 2:41am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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I agree I'm pushing on the turn against most players but if you know that he's so good it's not wrong to fold..
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Im_new
Post Posted: Sat, 14 Jun 2008, 9:16am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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How often will you guys second barrel to a flat call on the flop? Often! You all are winning players, and you know you're second barreling QQ-JJ on this turn. If you aren't, unless you have a read, you're pretty nitty. I think it depends on the reg as well. The aggro ones will bet again without question. The nits won't... ehh. R-raise flop...shove turn... as played, call river.
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