Small Suited Connectors

I've been going back and forth with this in my mind for quite awhile now, but I can't quite settle on what I think the correct play might be. I know a few of you on here are real EV geniuses so I suppose I am asking you. How many people should be in the pot before you start thinking about limping with these in LP? I'm talking mostly about 98s-54s. I used to think as long as there was one limper out in front, I figured it was worthwhile to put these into action with the blinds making it four to the flop, but now I'm not so sure. To be honest, I constantly run into this situation and never feel completely comfortable with my decision, in fact this might even be a leak for me. Just looking for some general guidelines for these types of situations so I can be play these without losing sleep later. Thanks all.

I will generally see the flop with these cards. Unless, that would be a really risky venture at a tight table or, the game is so loose and out of hand it isn't worth the risk. Notice, I use the word risk twice . If you believe that there will be a lot of callers after you who will not fold to a raise then, see the flop. If you are in late position you have an idea what has gone before you. Rocks are scared to death of these hands. They have no testicular fortitude. I have a criteria that must be met on hands like these post flop. It's called experience. Give them a go when the pot odds justify it. Get used to the feeling of winning with more than just sets...

I like to have at least 4:1 to play 98s, maybe 5:1 to play 76s, and maybe 6:1 to play 65s or 54s, but if my opponents play very good or very bad I would adjust these figures up or down accordingly.

Everyone knows that a hand like 98s is better than a hand like 65s, but people don't always understand why exactly. Here's what can happen with these hands and what it can mean for you.

1) You make a straight

2) You make a flush

3) You make two pair

4) You make trips or a FH

5) You make the best one pair hand

With straights, 98s will usually get you more money than 65s, because of the cards that will be on board when you hit a straight. E.g., if you have 98s and the board is QJT72, you can get paid off a lot by QJ, QT, or JT, hands that people love to limp in with. Conversely, if you have 65s and the board is K9873. A King will probably pay you off but you are going to lose a lot of money to JT.

With flushes you can make a flush but there is always the slim chance someone will make a higher flush, costing you money. And with 98s the chance is less than with 65s because someone in the blinds could have something like 73s. Also you can hit your flush on the turn and if someone decides to hang around with a 7 of the suit, they are drawing dead vs. 98s but live vs. 65s. These things don't happen often, but they happen.

With two pair, same thing - you can make two pair and lose to a bigger two pair.

With trips, the kicker sometimes makes the difference between a big win and a big loss. Even a FH can sometimes lose to a bigger FH and this will happen more often with 65 than 98.

With one pair hands, you are much more likely to have a final board where a 9 or 8 makes the best pair rather than a 6 or 5. Also consider how your odds change when someone limps in with a hand like 77. You're in much better shape against them with 98 than you are with 65. You shouldn't underestimate how often you will win with one pair, even in a multiway pot.

The point about straights is the most important one. The others are each minor but together they all add up to make 98s a significantly better hand than 65s.

Well said, Driving Dog. Very much my line of thinking and more clearer. I tend to take more risks with these hands than most should. That is, if they even play them. Some won't even try. They read too many Poker Books. By the time they find themselves in that perfect world of having a huge field with an unraised pot, in position, it's too late. They toss stuff out of fear too quickly. It's a fine line, I admit. I want to feel comfortable. ......I like the number of players against that you mention above.. I work on the most basic of levels when it comes to many starting hands, that is; straights, flushes and full house beat everything else. I don't sweat the bigger stuff. The risk for me is NOT, trying. Yes, a lot can go wrong. And if you stay in a foxhole too long, they will fill it in with you, in it.....You can be destroyed even if, you hold the higher ground. If, you don't take command, someone else will......."Bayonets!"_Col. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain_ 20th Maine Volunteer Regiment. Battle of Little Round Top, Gettysburg. P.S. I fly the flag of the 20th Maine on my property so, I never forget.

what level are we playing? i feel that if we arent playing these in ANY pot under $.50/$1, we are losing value....any pot from LP.

or, $4/$8 live...since you live in Foxwoods.

*Last edited by showboatlou on Tue, 01 Apr 2008, 3:17am; edited 1 time in total*

His post is really old, Chopper. He may not get back to us.... I can tell you from my last visit to Foxwoods that, these cards are golden at the 5/10, there. I wish I had got them, at all. It was really passive. Still, I played the most cautious game of my life. I didn't get dealt much good stuff. I didn't do well. I was exhausted from the drive down from Maine. I vowed to not play in any casino again until the conditions were right. I've kept that vow. I love those cards when, I get them. They all knew each other too. That, didn't help.

i laugh at not noticing how old that post is. i miss those everytime.

as for foxwoods, i dont play live, except very rarely. so, the 4/8 comment was only hearsay. but, i have sat on a table where there were clearly 3-4 regulars, and that sucks. they know how the other plays....sort of. i dont know shit about any of them. i found out as i went along, but it was a bit unsettling. i cant say i didnt get cards, because its obviously different live than online (boredom), but i felt card dead for sure.

i was happy to B/E on my maiden voyage. but, i am looking to get some experience in limit (the previous visit was NL). i think i can take the table on ok, but its the damned rake i think is almost unbeatable at 3/6.

anyone agree/disagree?

Being the only poker casino in New England has its merits, for them. You get screwed. "It's the only game in town". It's got over 100 tables... The place is teeming with pros and semi pros. It's a very dangerous place to learn about live games. The very first table I ever played on, was there: a 5/10. I remember two guys on it. I saw them in some old WSOP video, later. There's an old guy who's there every day. He was on that first table too! I call him, The Hummer. He's good. He's nice enough. He hums an awful lot...The next time I'm up there I'm going to a 10/20 table or, I will not play. Actual tourists and fewer grinders are there. I checked. I waited an hour for that table and it never opened. The Hummer, was there... Rake will kill you if the locals don't. This applies anywhere. You have to beat the table big time to actually make a profit. You can't pull any slick moves like you can at higher limits. There are just too many stations. It's twice as much mental work. Having seven to ten players against on the flop is good for pot odds but, will you get the cards? (I like to steal pots. Don't tell nobody). You must have the best hand because, some Sheriff will be there to keep you honest. Honest...Get the skills and bankroll to get the hell out of low limit. Then, if you are feeling particularly carnivorous, cruise into the shallow water into the minnow pond....Be able to play at any level....

Those tables where everyone calls down are the most profitable ones. I've gotten ridiculous win rates short term on those tables, 15BB/100 hands over 10K-ish hands. Playing the same stakes on stars I've found that I can actually get away with bluffing sometimes, but I'm barely keeping my head above the water on Stars (although 2K hands is nothing to make long-term predictions about)

Huge pot odds in favor of playing a draw are the key. When you nail it, you nail it BIG. Let the rookies call. They have a place in my heart. That is, if I had one. It's just revenge.

I'm finding (through observing people who take monies from me), that mid scs are a good cold calling hand against a tight player who raises in mp or lp. Easy to get away from on the flop, and profitable if you have a good idea of villain's raising range and can play well postflop with odds calculations etc. A few good players have burned me really badly with this tactic, which makes me want to try it.

most top players probably fold these unless there are limpers in the pot already, don't "predict" limpers

i'd say reduce variance by avoiding c/c raises with sc in mp/lp, but if it's a 5+ handed pot, get in there. 4 might work though

I play 98s only in late position with 2 limpers max. and of course it depends on the table (tight/loose)

i want to add something since i came across this thread again. wow, the volume of limit players on FTR never ceases to blow my mind... Wink

everyone is advocating limping behind. fine. probably the better EV choice for a FR game. but, if in late position, and we know no one is folding for "one more," why arent we raising more often than seldom?

we get paid by people thinking we are full of crap and calling down. we cant get premiums paid when that is all we play. seems to me, these are beautiful hands to raise when opening or when limpers are in pots. you take initiative when you have chronic folders in a hand, and when you hit, you are one step closer to a big pot. not to mention, the action you'll get on your AK after you get caught with one of these in your hand. do this a bit more often and watch the cold calls when you have AK.

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