Morality of Poker

I am often confronted with questions and comments regarding the morality of poker. I am never lost for words but I often feel as though I disagree with those words. I'd really like to hear how FTR handles these conversations.

I took the following from some article some guy wrote:

The thing is, you see, I had never thought about what it meant to be a winner. I played the game for the pleasure of the game. To be sure, I liked the money. I liked winning. Being a winner is part of what the game is about. But for me to be a winner there have to be losers. And that's a problem. I don't want to make money by hurting people.

A professional poker player plays to make money. The best way to make money is to be a hustler, to exploit compulsive losers, to be a predator without a conscience. Remember my pool hustler friends and how they operated. That's the way you have to be, that's the way you have to do things, that's the way you have to treat people and think of them. It's a bit different for the poker hustler. He has to keep the games going. He has to know who can be stripped and who can be bled over a period of time. He wears a mask of friendship in the game but his fellow players aren't people; they're marks.

The predator and his prey have one thing in common; they both obsess over the game. I've known professional poker players - they mostly are a sad lot. Gambling is their life. They live to take money from compulsive losers.

I know d0zer is going to freak over this, but I know exactly where you're coming from. When I encounter a person who is obsessed, loves the game as much as I do, and continues to lose (the people at all our home games lol), I help him/them out by giving him tips, etc, where I can. You teach him/them to not suck so much. By doing that 1 thing, you show yourself, as well as other people, that you can enjoy the game ,the hunt, and prove you're not an addict to tricking 'poor suckers' and taking their money. It's above that. We like to think we're winning money from someone who is properly rolled for it. Nothing feels worse than taking an addicts money. But by spreading the good word on BR and other useful tips, you prevent that... and make the game more challenging.

I struggle a lot with this. I'm a bit of an idealist. My view is that our society is built on amoral systems. Poker to me is a means to financial solvency that doesn't require me to work inside an inherently evil structure. I have plans for the future, but they require money, and this is one of the least hurtful things we are able to do in order to make money. For me it's either this or teaching, and teaching will require a few more years of school...

dev is that your way of saying you're lazy? Smile

teasing

I hear ya

that, too

Morality in poker is relative. Playing for microstakes, I at least don't feel like I'm taking some addict's rent or food money. Jeez, if they can blow a month's rent on 10nl, they both suck really bad and live in a shit hole.

I don't know what I'll think when (and if) I'm playing 200nl. I'm religious. But politically libertarian. I agree with folks above that I don't want to feel as though my success hinges on the addictions, compulsions and indebtedness of others. Just because it's online and we don't know the victims doesn't mean there aren't any.

Do I love poker? Yes. Do I wanna quit? No. Do I worry about the morality? Yes. Do I have any great answers? No.

gl nh drew

Survival of the fittest.

Gamblers will gamble whether poker exists or not.

True 'players' are essentially the house to gamblers, and I for one am glad to see someone other than the house make some money offa people determined to throw money away for a thrill.

Poker's a great metaphor for this rather harsh world we live in. We so easily forget in this cushy modern world of ours that 'dog eat dog' has been the dominant paradigm for about as far back as anyone can see...

I dont give a damn. If I cared about my opponents everytime I took part in a competition I would have lost most of my 2X/4X-races, I would have entered most first turns 2nd, feared that bumping into my opponent could throw him off and possibly hurt him. If u cant afford to lose, dont sit down. And seriously, noone who sits down with us has to go to bed with an empty stomach after we took his stack.

Feel bad about not donating a small % of your winnings for starving children in the 3rd world or for "Last Wish"-programs for kids who got hit by cancer. Dont worry about guys, who play games where they dont belong, you´re not their babysitter.

I think Robb hit on a big point in regards to the morality of poker.

The thing is people try to use a blanket idea of Morality in regards to all aspects of life, and as wonderful a Utopian idea as this is it just doesn't work. There is a moral code in relation to whatever sports you may play, and sure some moral points may cross over but each sport has its own "rules" and ways of being. There are moral codes in relation to peace and war, each one has its own set of incidents which are seen as "ok" but aren't transposable in regards to the other side.

Poker, like pool, is a game which requires two players. A winner and a loser. Just like Boxing. A boxer can't worry about what damage is done in the ring during the fight, he can't afford to. He is focused on winning the match. Outside of the ring he'll be looking after his opponent just as much as anyone else if he feels like he should.

I love poker and I love pool. Both of these sports appeal to my "killing" nature, for the very reasons that I'm looking to take apart my opponent. If someone can't afford to be in the game then they shouldn't be there. Away from the table I'll be looking to keep people who can't deal/afford with the stakes away from the game if I believe they have a problem. Because away from the table is different from at the table, and that's what a lot of people don't consider.

However just because as players we are looking to bankrupt our opponents, we don't need to be doing it in dark backrooms surrounded by people with guns. Everything surrounding the game needs to be as morally "right" as possible, so that the only thing that matters is the game itself. Tournaments, casinos, online rooms all need to be as "straight" as possible. And even at the tables cheating needs to be stamped out (like the issues possibly surrounding Men Ngyuen) but if you can't deal with taking money from someone else then why are you playing?

As a Christian, I don't believe that there is anything inherently wrong or immoral about playing poker, but if these things become the central focus of your life you have a problem. If it negatively affects your life and the life of those around you, then it becomes sinful/immoral.

As far as taking money from addicts or people who can't afford to lose it, I personally believe that that is completely on them. It is just the same if I give money to a homeless person on the side of the road- they may either buy food or drugs, but that is between them and God. When an old man loses part of his social security to me in Laughlin, he had a choice of whether or not to sit down at the table in a game where he obviously has no idea of what he is doing. Also, I feel it is better that these people lose their money to me or other people instead of a wealthy corporation through other casino games.

Not sure if this made sense or was relevant but I just felt like writing something.

Honestly this is something that I've thought about a lot...

What does it mean to be a professional gambler? There will always be winners and losers. What seperates the occasional player who wins from the professional?

Basically I don't really care, I take out a miniscule part of the poker economy and if somebody lost his house... well he was going to lose it anyway because he clearly has a problem. If I wasn't taking his money then some big offshore company would be and I'm a poor student so I feel like I need the money more.

Besides that, I try and put the morality to one side because this is my only hope of getting through college without being bankrupt by the end of my 4 years.

Theres an implicit assumption in the counter-argument that all "losers" are playing with money they cant afford to lose. Thats just not true. This is entertainment for some people. Rather than go to a bar, or go to a restaurant, or any other way of spending for their entertainment, they gamble, and their losses are seen as the cost of that entertainment.

To assume sharks are taking advantage of poor helpless gamblers is like assuming bars are taking advantage of poor helpless alcoholics.

survival of the fittest
dog eat dog
whatever
i dont give a shit if im taking your rent money, you shouldnt be in the gene pool if you are this dumb, and
i see it as my duty to help you remove yourself.

The truth is that morality is -EV, cause poker IS immoral Exclamation

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