I almost don't like poker anymore...

Okay, I'm going to vent for awhile. If you skip down a bit you'll get to the part where I actually have some questions I could use help with.

I have played for a few months now, and here's a rundown of what's happened:
0. I increased a fake-money bankroll from 1,000 up to 80,000 and got excited enough that I decided to give the real thing a try.
1. In lowlimit, I brought $45 real money up to $180, essentially on luck. All I knew at that point was which starting hands to call with.
2. I lost almost all of that money. Then I got lucky and hit a diamond royal flush -- PokerRoom pays you $500 for doing this. So I played some higher stakes tables and lost another 100 before realizing I should do more reading.
3. After extensively reading and studying every strategy I could find, I lost another 200
4. This site convinced me that no limit was the way to go, because if you know what you're doing you can bet effectively -- punish people for playing bad cards etc. Great theory.
5. I have now lost another 100.

My net change over three weeks or so is -350. The only reason I have any money left is because of the aforementioned $500.

So my problem, of course, is that I keep learning and learning, and losing and losing. By the way, this doesn't occur in "swings". It is a steady and constant downward movement. I lose in different ways for different reasons, but that is the only variance I've experienced since applying strategy to the game.

Actual questions:

1. My impulse is to raise preflop with premium hands, so that the people with crap either fold or lose their money to me. When I do this, everyone folds and I get a big bling for my trouble. Is this wrong?
2. When I get tired of losing through method #1, i stop raising preflop. As a result, people stay in against me with crap and the implicit collusion kills me.
3. Is it really possible to fold 75% of hands preflop, then another 2/3rds of the hands where you're in the flop, and still make money?

Okay, I'm just being whiny and annoying, but all comments are appreciated.

1. No, eventually someone will call.
2. It happens, Hopefully not too often. Selective folding is key. ie knowing to fold when theres a possible straight or flush, A lot of people calling you down, etc. table selection will also help. See article on main page.
3. Yes, but..it takes longer but its a lot less risky. aka the grind.

The key is your last question.....and the answer is yes.

25% of flops seen is very high to me. The idea being if you don't play a hand it doesn't cost you anything. If you limp in and don't hit the flop.....don't bet it and it didn't cost you anything. Wait until you do hit something.

As for raising premium hands big......I generally limp alot of good hands so I can see a cheap flop. If I hit then great I bet. If I don't then I'm outta there.

Now when you're talking primo hands.....like JJ/QQ/KK/AA/AK I raise them 99 % of the time but you have to make sure your raise doesn't drive them all out. Try raising 4-6X the big blind and that should get you some action in terms of callers but not too much. You also have to consider your position when raising with a monster starting hand. If I am one of the first to act my raise may only be 4 X the big blind but if I am in late position with lots of limpers I may raise it to 6X BB or even higher.

Also if I have AK or KK or AA for example and most of the table folds out before it comes to me with only 1 limper and 1 or 2 left then i may just limp in or just raise the minimum raise in the hopes I will get 1 or 2 to see the flop with me so I can get some money out of the hand.

I dunno if this will help you but try to give it a shot because I'm doing fairly well with it. The biggest thing I want to stress to you is regardless how good your starting hand is.....if you don't hit anything that don't stick around to bet hoping your card will come on the turn or river because most of the time it won't.

I will try to help

1. My impulse is to raise preflop with premium hands, so that the people with crap either fold or lose their money to me. When I do this, everyone folds and I get a big bling for my trouble. Is this wrong?
2. When I get tired of losing through method #1, i stop raising preflop. As a result, people stay in against me with crap and the implicit collusion kills me.
3. Is it really possible to fold 75% of hands preflop, then another 2/3rds of the hands where you're in the flop, and still make money?

----- This Is All Rule Of Thumb Here

1. Raising pre-flop with premium hands is the best move you can make. Getting your money in when you have the best of it is how you make money. I am not a fan big supporter of slowplaying - there are enough fish that people will call your raises enough to make you one happy camper.

2. Read this sentance: I am not going to bet when I have a good hand. It just doesn't make sense. Not saying that betting is most productive in every situation, but for the most part, and if you are a beginner - it is.

3. Yes, 1BB/hr - 1.5BB/hr is what pros achieve. In a 10/20 game, that is $20/hr, in a 50/100 game that is...well you get the point. Online, you have a major advantage, you see more hands per hour (WAY MORE) than at a B&M. If you are bored, and are playing a low limit game, when you win one decent pot - fold for an hour, (also this is good practice in general) if it really bugs you to do this, open up another table and play normally on that table. After the hour, take a look at your bankroll.

.25/.50 game 10 handed game

You win a big pot of 7.00 - You fold 80 hands in a row, (8 cycles of blinds) and you are still up 1.00 or well over 1BB. (1.33BB). Assume each hand takes about a min. to complete - you are approx. at 1BB/hr.
Very Happy

Folding is the strongest play in holdem - just remember that

excellent points Yeah!

I think that while the WPT tourneys on tv have been great to bring tons of new people to this game (myself included), they also have got newbies thinking and acting like total maniacs.

First of all you only see the final table on tv when its down to 3 or 4 players and the players really loosen up, betting big with 3-4 offsuit or on a stone cold bluff etc. However the majority of them play pretty tight the first few days of the tournament in order to get to the final table. The other thing to consider is that what makes maniacs like Gus Hansen so great is their instincts about when to bet and when to get away from the hand. Its a whole heck of a lot harder to read someone on the computer thats for sure.

First off limit and no-limit are extremely different.

My thoughts would in general apply to both.

Having said that - the link at sklansky's site (strange??)

Micro-limits?? - I can say 2/4 online and up, 5/10 B&M and up, you will lose following that advice in the long run.

I don't play micro-limits though, so I can't even agree/disagree with that link.

For a second there I realized that the reason people give up poker or run out of money to play is because they fold too much, not because they play tooooo many hands. - But it was SOOOOOOUUUITED

YEEEEEEEEEEEE-HAAAAAAAAAA

I appreciate all the replies.

I found the post at 2+2 pretty helpful, in terms of motivation at least. It doesn't do me much practical good because I see top pair or better maybe 1 in 50 hands if that.
Wink

So when he says "hey quit wimping out and folding top pair" I take exception.

Alright, enough whining (again). Stories:

I have QQ. in SB. This table is somewhat tight. There's a middle position raise, which I reraise to make it respectable. He comes back with a bet that puts me all in.

I should probably fold. But I have so little money that I don't feel like dumping queens right now. He has AK and takes my rack.

Next hand (after I visit the cashier)
This time I get the AK and put a big bet in preflop. I get one caller. The flop has 3 clubs, neither of my cards are clubs, and the turn is also a club. Any club beats me, so I check the rest of the way and lose to 77.

Next hand (I'm not making this up)
I'm in BB so I end up in the flop with T6. Hooray! The flop is 2 6 T
I put a nice big bet in and everyone folds. I gain 0.95, having lost $23 on the previous hands.

What's going wrong? This is a pretty good cross section of the Entire Downward Slide I have been speaking of. It's not from folding too much. It's from getting beaten too much, see?

*Last edited by Yeah on Fri, 18 Jun 2004, 5:09pm; edited 1 time in total*

If you are playing NL and agree with the twoplustwo link - you will lose all your money.

That being said...

-- I have QQ. in SB. This table is somewhat tight. There's a middle position raise, which I reraise to make it respectable. He comes back with a bet that puts me all in.

I should probably fold. But I have so little money that I don't feel like dumping queens right now. He has AK and takes my rack. ---

My thoughts:

I wouldn't dump them in that situation either, based on the limited info you told me. If he only makes an allin's preflop with aces, then I would fold. I have no idea if he does do that, and I don't think you do either.
You were still the favorite pre-flop as well. So tough break, but reload, and that will work out in the long run.

------

Next hand (after I visit the cashier)
This time I get the AK and put a big bet in preflop. I get one caller. The flop has 3 clubs, neither of my cards are clubs, and the turn is also a club. Any club beats me, so I check the rest of the way and lose to 77.
------

My thoughts

I would throw a pot size bet on the flop, good bluffing oppertunity, and you get a good idea of where you are at by betting. If he calls check/fold, if he raises fold.

----------

Next hand (I'm not making this up)
I'm in BB so I end up in the flop with T6. Hooray! The flop is 2 6 T
I put a nice big bet in and everyone folds. I gain 0.95, having lost $23 on the previous hands.

What's going wrong? This is a pretty good cross section of the Entire Downward Slide I have been speaking of. It's not from folding too much. It's from getting beaten too much, see?

-----------------

If you can't take the huge swings of NL, play limit. It doesn't sound like you can at this point.

To give you an example as I am writing this: (in the past 30 hands)

I am delt KK, raised before me, I re-raise - he pushes all in. I call.

He shows A9s, spikes an ace on the river. I lose.

I have 55 in LP. 3 limpers, I limp. Flop come 8 5 2 (suits not important) Long story short he has 88, and I lose.

I am delt AKs in MP, folded to me - I raise 3xBB, all fold. I win the blinds.

See, it can happen to everyone. Just hang in.

From what I can tell, you may be overplaying your good starting hands after the flop. Take that AK for example. When the flop came out 3 clubs, make a small bet to see if your opponent has it, if he does, fold. It's just AK. With AK you're going to miss the flop 3 out of 4 times anyway. Just cause a hand is good to start off doesn't mean it's going to pay. Unless people fold right then and there. It can be hard, but in NO LIMIT you have to be able to let go of good STARTING hands that don't hit-- unless you're REALLY good at post flop play.

Sounds like you played the T6 correctly.

Last follow up on this subject for me, and perhaps i am wrong and not seeing how his advice fits, but I will take one more stab at it.

After reading the ENTIRE (it took forever) thread on twoplustwo. Most people are concerned with the pot odds when they feel they are down in the pot. Which is very important - don't get me wrong.

Most good players know when people are chasing. What I feel is more important is not giving the correct odds to call when you are ahead. (in lower limit games)

In limit, it can be impossible to do that. Which is one reason I shun from limit games. Yet, seasoned players will know when the are beaten by a chaser. At that point they will check/call down or check/fold. New players do not.

In higher limits, maximzing your pot when you win, and minimzing your losses is key.

Odds are a great thing, but a machine can NOT beat a limit holdem game. It is a machine type game although.

Pot odds is a huge factor in limit holdem, but if you don't learn how to fold it doesn't matter. And in 2/4 and up games online, how often do you see a pot with more than 4 people in it preflop (10 handed that is)?

The average is almost always around 40%, and when it is higher you assume what - fish are there

Just my thoughts

Ahh, the dreaded reply. Let's see if you can put two and two together - get it - rrrrrriiiigght

Ok, anyways...

Judging by your comments: Holding A3 in a holdem 10 handed game with top pair on the flop will result in a plus ev move

In holdem, in a 10 handed game how many other people (odds wise) hold an ace if you do?

What are the odds you will now hit your aces on the flop? (under generalzation, assume there are only 2 aces left, odds wise that would be a correct assumption most of the time)

What are the odds that that random player plays his ace? (generalization is alright with me, but this is a tough question and is very non-detailed, yet it must be considered)

What is the odds you will now win the hand with top pair? (and your 3 kicker)

So, what is the number of bets preflop you need to play your A3?

My general rule is this... unless you're against a table of very tight players, never slowplay a great hand. If you've got players that fold to any type of aggression then slowplaying might be the key... but loose players should always have to pay to chase cards.

If you've got the goods, play like you've got the goods. I'd rather steal the blinds than let someone draw to beat me. If you've got them beat, and they're drawing to beat you, make them pay for every card they see.

You'll get beat sometimes, and bad beats occasionally, but chasing cards will eventually catch you, and betting the premium ones will pay out over time.

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I almost don't like poker anymore...