2/5 - 300bb hand with KK: Alexos vs Griffey24

*Last edited by griffey24 on Sat, 15 Mar 2008, 3:42pm; edited 3 times in total*

I'm gonna post this hand from Alexos perspective, cause its more interesting than from mine.

-This hand was part of a long session we had on many different tables.
-here are a couple of hands we played together before this hand in question:
http://www.pokerhand.org/?2269033
http://www.pokerhand.org/?2269036
http://www.pokerhand.org/?2269039

-This is what Alexos more or less had to say about the hand in his blog:
- it came after several hands of bluffing and numerous 3bet bluffing etc.
-I felt like although sets are definitly in his range here, us being this deep is a very good spot for him to bluff, since I can't call with much?

(sorry the usual hand converter doesn't seem to be working for the Crypto sites)

Seat 1: cmonemakr ($500 in chips)
Seat 2: Griffey24 ($1693.55 in chips)
Seat 3: axelrodi ($493.40 in chips)
Seat 4: Alexos ($1649.70 in chips)
Seat 5: Raven ($493 in chips)
Seat 6: gubbe004 ($1127.20 in chips)
axelrodi: posts small blind $2
Alexos: posts big blind $5
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Alexos King of Hearts

Raven: folds
gubbe004: raises to $20
Griffey24: calls $20
axelrodi: folds
Alexos: raises to $100
gubbe004: folds
Griffey24: calls $80
----- FLOP ----- Jack of Hearts

Alexos: bets $175
Griffey24: raises to $480
Alexos: ??

I think this is a fucking brilliant spot to 4bet pre; am I stuck on level 0?

i like ur line griffey tho id often 3bet pre

u like his line regardless of his cards right?

meaning... i should get it in asap or what?

I hope people realize that I posted this hand from Alexos' point of view!

I didn't have KK this hand, Alexos did. Maybe I'm misreading the replies, but it sounds like ppl think I had the kings..

So how often is griffey 3-betting 66 or 44 pre here, and is he capable of flatting JJ?

Personally i think that you have to go all the way here, i just don't really know what to do.

His raise size smells like a hand so i fold and he probably doesn't think you're going to fold an overpair anyways.

I also doubt he turns a pp into a bluff on this board he'd probably wait for a 985 type board or something

eh ok i think small 3-bet on flop is goot.

330BB deep I'm pretty much playing AA/KK for set value. This should be folded very fast. Good draws and sets make up a big part of griffeys range here.

Just no way we can continue profitably here. In some very sick HU game I might play, but this is a clear fold.

i dont get the flat, then the overcall of the 3bet ... this screams like a donkish type play to me and turns your hand face-up ? nobody agrees w/ this?

(i dont know what u had, if u had aces, i dont see why not 4bet over his squeeze since u set the situation up perfectly, but if u have something like a med pr ... like why do u want to give him so much info? u will have to just fold to his c-bet so much cuz his range is weighted so much more heavily towards big pairs when 3betting out of the blinds (even if he is getting out of line, fact is, u cant know that).

i like your flop raise based on your pf play, but its a question of dynamics .. if youve been fighting, in his spot i find it hard to believe im beat and lay this down. lol i might possibly be leveling myself here but for the same reason i like the raise, it seems too transparent from his perspective. id flat and crai on turn if it's battle situation. god, 300bb is so tough, maybe this is just bad game selection? lol ... everything i just typed was thinking out loud, im inexperienced in these situations so don't listen to me too much

Most of these comments in this thread make a lot of sense, but it is clear we are not all thinking on the same level. P4 I understand this deep we shouldn't be playing for stacks with AA/KK theoretically, but beyond a certain limit won't you get run over completly if you think that way?

It just seems so weak to me to fold here when you're facing a good opponent that will probably take advantage of the fact we're deep.

Anybody like calling here and getting it in on a non-heart turn as opposed to shoving right away, assuming we wanna stack off?

If the board is J64 rainbow then his range is a lot more sets/air and I'd def be more inclined to fold..maybe

alexos im def w/ u ... obv by my first response i confused myself a bit, but i think u r dead on about the fact that u r gonna get run over by a good player by not playing for stacks w/ AA/KK in this spot. i know id be trying to abuse u w/ position this deep knowing it's incredibly hard for u to continue w/out like a set.

anyways like i said, w/ history i def like flatting and crai on a non heart turn. but probly best to just stay away from super high variance situations like this ???

ISF and P4's ... I like the points you make, but if you want to look at the situation like that doesn't it just basically constantly put you in sick spots w/ AA/KK here against any solid villain that we know will call loosely in position because of the fact that he knows he can abuse the situation?

or am i taking this a level too far?

i mean ... like can we come up w/ a more optimal line than b/f the flop in alexos situation if u feel so solid in your stance?

I can't stress how F***ing crucial flop timing is here. If he raised without thinking that much is much different than if he raised after thinking till a time bank warning appears.

C/r is by far our worst option btw, just thought I'd throw that out there Smile

. C/c all the way is pretty interesting though, versus some players it may be the best line but probably not in this scenario.

If I'm griffey though, I'm not sure I like raising here with any of our range. There's too much info that Alexos can give away on later streets in such a shitty spot, and we can still play for stacks if we flat with a set. What do you guys think?

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2/5 - 300bb hand with KK: Alexos vs Griffey24