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Posted: Mon, 31 Dec 2007, 9:40pm Post subject: Live Hand 1 of 2 from tonight
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17644
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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$300 buy-in, 5/3 blinds in Cali-forn-I-A
UTG limps
UTG+1 (over $1k) limps
TAggy pre-flop, weak post-flop and for real money ($450) raises to $35 (AJ+, Suited Broadways, 88+)
Donator (about $160, at least his third buy) calls from MP
I have   with about $750 and re-raise to $120 from the HJ
CO & BN fold
Blinds fold
UTG folds
UTG+1 tanks really really hard...
"You got about $600 behind?" *curses*
I ask "Do you have a pair"
"Well, I've thought about it this long"
TAggy shows his hand to the dealer and says "well he has me beat"
A clock is called
UTG+1 calls
TAggy bullet folds
Donator calls.
UTG+1 might be on scared money, kinda TAggy over-playing luke-warmish hands pre-flop.
about $400 in the pot, 3 to the flop
Flop is   
UTG+1 looks at the flop, then decisivly shoves
Donator calls for $40
It's over $620 to me.
Put UTG+1 on a range. |
Last edited by Fnord on Tue, 01 Jan 2008, 12:54am; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Mon, 31 Dec 2007, 10:21pm Post subject:
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Almost as bad as that idiot redgrape
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6104
WPP: 73
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| AQ, QQ/88, AxKc, JJ/TT in order of likelyness i think. |
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Posted: Mon, 31 Dec 2007, 10:29pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 2035
WPP: 70
Location: the ether
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QQ is unlikely.
Range is 88/AA/ TTc/JJc/AxKc
as played, wow... |
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Posted: Mon, 31 Dec 2007, 10:35pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17644
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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Interesting ranges, so are you calling or folding?
edit: Posts like this remind me just how hard it can be to read hands. |
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Posted: Tue, 01 Jan 2008, 12:01am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 1618
WPP: 47
Location: Gainesville
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| I am reading his physical tells as a sign of strength. He is showing is strong, but not AA, hand to the dealer (AQ+, JJ+) to justify his semi-loose (to his scared money/TAGfish opinion) call. 88 is possible, but I am putting him on AQ. I would call because its live and GAMBOOOOOL |
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Posted: Tue, 01 Jan 2008, 12:06am Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17644
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| Deanglow wrote: | | I would call because its live and GAMBOOOOOL |
This is a silly reason to get the way worst of it (if we think we don't have enough equity) in a really big pot for this game.
| Deanglow wrote: | | He is showing is strong, but not AA, hand to the dealer (AQ+, JJ+) to justify his semi-loose (to his scared money/TAGfish opinion) call. |
Read the post again, closer. There are 2 TAggs and a donator of note here. The guy who showed to the dealer tipped that he's folding out of turn.
Probably extra information, but I'm trying to capture all of the information leakage. |
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Posted: Wed, 02 Jan 2008, 1:20am Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17644
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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My gut response was CALL! But since the pot was so large I took a little extra time and then pretty quickly folded.
My process of putting him on a hand...
Pre-flop: I very strongly discounted AA because I didn't think he was acting (it would take a huge asshole to play AA like that) and he seemed concerned he tipped his hand. His response to my pair question was almost a jesture "ummmm duh!" so discount AK. KK would be retarded as well. So probably QQ or JJ, maybe KK, TT would be weak, but it's live. Perhaps we was doing the math wrong for 99-22 (8 to 1 instead of 10 to 1) I really don't think AQ would be a serious decison for him here.
Flop: This really reeks of a retarded AQ, but it doesn't fit! He can't have the Ace of clubs because I have that. Now throw in the donator who pot-fucked himself and he almost can't be bluffing here and most of the semi-bluffs just went out of his range. QQ had to be it, even if his push robbed him of playing a HUGE pot here. Maybe KK with the Kc trying to get me off Aces or something. Or he got lucky. Perhaps A Kc or J Jc, but he just didn't look like he was getting fresh with the other guy in there.
So I had his range at: QQ
Lightly Discount: KK, 88, Ax Kc
Heavily Discount: Jx Jc, Tx Tc
Hence, I don't think my one pair outs are good between the strength of his range and the third guy in there. My SWAG was I was about 33% to win the pot. Wasn't getting the right price and even if I was in better shape it's really close. Near zero EV plays for $1.5k are pretty silly for the stakes I play at and I was pretty sure this was one of those funny -EV spots.
Thoughts before I say what he had? |
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Posted: Wed, 02 Jan 2008, 1:31am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 4909
WPP: 81
Location: Pwnsylvania
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pot odds yo?
Also, do you have more cash on you? Is it worth it to get very deep (i.e. another donator sitting on a pile)? |
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Posted: Wed, 02 Jan 2008, 3:17am Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 19 Dec 2007
Posts: 102
WPP: 85
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| I may be off, but I put him on either KcQx or 88. It says he originally limped in...would he really do that with QQ? |
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Posted: Wed, 02 Jan 2008, 3:22am Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17644
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| bigspenda73 wrote: | | Is it worth it to get very deep (i.e. another donator sitting on a pile)? |
He was the deepest stack, next biggest was in the ballpark of $900. GAMB00L to cover doesn't really fit into my game once I have a couple buy-ins. |
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Posted: Wed, 02 Jan 2008, 7:14am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3037
WPP: 95
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| Your pair outs are getting smoked no matter what he has. I'm not a huge fan of 6-8 outers for deep stacks. He pushed a set of some kind in most cases, and it's nothing I haven't seen before. It happens mostly when time is of the essence, such as one tabling live, and you only have so long to play. He's basically playing a strong hand incorrectly in the name of protecting it somehow. |
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Posted: Wed, 02 Jan 2008, 9:46am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 3006
WPP: 93
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If he has a pair he probably has an A or K to go with. If he has more than a pair our 1 pair outs are no good and he often has redraws.
limp/call/tank-call doesnt really make sense to me as being QQ but not many hands make sense how he played it.
I think his range is more like
Probable: 88/33/AQ/QQ
Less Likely: AKc/JcJ/TcT
I think he probably shoves AA/KK at somepoint preflop. We cant count it as a 15 out draw because the times our one pair outs are good are canceled by the times he has redraws with sets or he holds on of our outs. We have 36% against his "probable" range which is almost exactly what we need. The more often he has "less likely" hands the more +EV it becomes so I think its a marginal call.
Thats pretty interesting though because I thought it was a pretty easy fold at first.
edit: Actually I think he has 88/33 far more often than QQ/AQ here since you have the Ac so its probably a marginal fold. |
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Posted: Wed, 02 Jan 2008, 2:12pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17644
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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He had QQ
I'm trying to understand the pre-flop range people are putting him on given the player profile and information leakage.
| Rondavu wrote: | | He's basically playing a strong hand incorrectly in the name of protecting it somehow. |
This is the really interesting part from a psychology perspective. Maximizing his chance of a positive result was more important to him than maximizing the EV of his hand. If he checks, I bet at least $200 and make a crying call of his shove and he's in playing a 1.5k pot with top set! |
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Posted: Wed, 02 Jan 2008, 2:43pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 1618
WPP: 47
Location: Gainesville
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| Fnord wrote: | He had QQ
I'm trying to understand the pre-flop range people are putting him on given the player profile and information leakage.
| Rondavu wrote: | | He's basically playing a strong hand incorrectly in the name of protecting it somehow. |
This is the really interesting part from a psychology perspective. Maximizing his chance of a positive result was more important to him than maximizing the EV of his hand. If he checks, I bet at least $200 and make a crying call of his shove and he's in playing a 1.5k pot with top set! |
Obviously the more important part is, would you have hit it?
In live play I am seeing more and more of this shoving huge with the nuts type thing. I really don't understand it. |
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Posted: Wed, 02 Jan 2008, 3:59pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17644
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| Deanglow wrote: | | Obviously the more important part is, would you have hit it? |
It was a good laydown 
| Deanglow wrote: | | In live play I am seeing more and more of this shoving huge with the nuts type thing. I really don't understand it. |
It's a pretty reasonable play if people are calling. Although sucking people in is pretty easy as well. In any case, this was a really retared spot for it, but it saved me a bunch of cash. |
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Posted: Thu, 03 Jan 2008, 11:43pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 2035
WPP: 70
Location: the ether
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