Random Poker Questions

Hi,

As the title says, here are a collection of questions that I've yet to find the answer to.

1) B&M; Oppressive Rake
I often read how some B&M casinos have such a high rake that anything below $10/$20 can be almost impossible to profit at. But why? If you're winning, you're gonna leave with more then you entered with.

You bet $10. He calls. You win. Even at 10% rake, you still take $18 from a $10 bet.

2) Oppressive Buy Ins
Some tourneys are deemed to be not worth the while due to the buy in fee. Eg: one such tourney is a 10 seater, $50+$9 affair. 1st place wins $160. Why would $50+$5 be acceptable but not + $9?

I have also seen this for MTT, apparently some Vegas casinos obscure the buy in by advertising as $350 instead of $300 + $50. But what is the difference - it's $350 eitehr way?

And in both examples, if you cash, you're still going to take home far more than you invested.

3) Online Networks
Many poker sites share the same network: CryptoLogic, Prima, iPoker etc. Can Someone explain this fully?

At first, I assumed it just meant individual companies using the same software but in games, players have said they are playing at another site. As they were playing in specialised tourneys, like jackpots where if you win 5 $10 SNGs in a row, you win $40,000, I then assumed that all sites had to be owned by the network as how else would multiple sites make the same offers?

But against this is that online sites can change networks, and a number of sites on the iPoker network are registered in different continents, which debunks the above.

I did email my iPoker site but the answers were in riddles. They said they share the same network as other sites but have independent management/support. When I asked for a clearer answer as to whether they are independent of each other, I got a repeat answer.

So guys, any ideas?

4) Professionals
We all hear about the guys winning the main events or maing $100K online but considering how even at .50/$1 level, tidy sums can be made in one sitting, are there pros on this site who are quietly and happily making a living - even if it's no more than they would if they worked a day job? Earning $100 a day or so?

In reverse order....

4. its suggested only a handfull (i.e not hundreds) will make a clear million from online poker this year, even in big games. therefore what you say has to be true. At the same time pro means that you make your living from poker and certainly you'll find people at all limits who do this well.

3.
Think of a network eg Partygaming, or CryptoLogic as a room that has many doors. Each door is a skin and all you do is enter through a different door when you enter a network PokerRoom via a different skin. Each skin obviously has its own hook, so yeah some will have a BBJ some wont etc

2+1, dunno i dont play live.

Thx,

Ash, what level do you play at? And cash or tourney?

drop down and read my signature before taking this for more than a grain of salt, but...

1) yes, you need to be thinking LONG-TERM. and live, unless you are a cheapskate, you also TIP the dealer. thats in addition to any rake you are already struggling to beat. most solid players beat the game for 1-3 BB's per hour in limit. at least, that's considered "beating the game." if you are at a $5-$10 game with an average pot of $50...there's an avg rake of $5. winner gets $45. online, its only $2.50. thats an extra 5% of YOUR take. over $1000, thats $50. it doesnt seem like much, but when you look back at the rake you paid...its sick. yes, winners are winners, but its much harder to take home loads of cash because the brick and mortar casino pokes bigger holes in your pockets for the money to fall out as you leave.

2) same as #1. yes, it is what it is.....but online is easier to beat (the rake that is), and you can multi-table. multi-tabling allows you to leverage a smaller bankroll than live and profit close to the same. this explains why online the stakes are so much harder at lower levels.

3) the online networks are "the mall," and the individual sites are "the stores inside the mall." you can go to any store, but the store leases space from the mall. and, shares the same location. take Crypto for example, you can play at a table against players from PokerPlex, SunPoker, WillHill, InterPoker, etc. the individual sites have their own bonuses, their own Rakebacks, their own marketing...but they all share CryptoLogic's NAME and player pool.

4) there are plenty of "pros" right here at FTR. by that i mean that they are making a living. run into the "NL Strategies" forum and look for CoccoBill's thread. look at that money!! he's a freak, but he doesnt need to take a day job. others here clear 40k in Rakeback alone. it really depends on what you call a living. hang around here awhile and you will start to see who's who pretty easily. hint: i aint one of them.

hope that answers your questions. feel free to ask some more.

Hey Chopper, mucho thanks.

I'm still not getting why $50 + $5 is agood deal but $50 + $9 isn't. Sorry if I'm coming across as numb right now.

As for "pro" - I was thinking comparable to a day job. A bog standard day job. I am *not* looking at going pro, I haven't the hands to know if I'm a lose money/break even/profit player, nor the experience etc. Though if I was, I'd only need $2000 a month; or $1000 if I moved in with my gf. On a generously easy 20 day month basis that's just $100/$50 a day. So I was thinking along those lines really when I asked about pros - though a chance to earn $40k in rake alone would be more than welcome Very Happy

I ask because I hope to be there sooner rather than later. I won't bore you with my personal situation suffice it to say I've been out of work (my choice) for 4 months and living off my investments. Working for somebody again is not on my agenda, ever, so there's no job to quit, no career to worry about and I already have sufficient savings/investments to support myself for 12 months without working. 24 months if I moved in with my missus. And so it really would be a limited risk when I feel good enough to take that small step from part time to full time.

At microstakes (.10/.20) I averaged $50 a session, single table, and $100 would be a very good session. That's a bit too close for comfort in terms of what I'd need to make but when I get good enough to play $2/$4, or even $1/$2 that shouldn't be an issue.

Let me repeat, I have no intention of going pro.....yet. Though I have the BR if required, I am also level headed. I've got money. I want to keep it Playing above my level is a sure fire way to not keep it. Very Happy

Here is another question, I forgot to ask. Tomorrow will be spent reading the essays and watching the videos here at FTR and hence my answer may lie within them.

Until I started mooching around forums, I never came across the term EV. Never heard commentators mention it. Not any pros. I have a few books/DVDs and though they all mention odds and percentages, none mention EV and so I am wondering, just how important is it to be successful at poker?

I've checked out a few descriptions and thus far, they all go over my head - but gimme a break; it's 3am! One example almost sent me into a coma, talking about probability of you winning a J high flush and the various possibilities of your opponent betting with any club, no club, a K or Qc etc.....snooze.

To be honest, I'd rather it wasn't essential. Despite my high IQ, maths isn't a particularly strong point and it always sends me into a coma. I can just about prevent my eyes glazing over when figuring out odds. However, I'm prepared to do everything to vastly improve.

I play 50NL and 100NL with a decent Rakeback deal.

Lemme ask you a couple of quizzical questions.. Smile

- I 8-table 75000 hands of .25/.50 (aka 50NL) and beat the game decently but don't crush it.

1. How much did I make an hour?
2. How much in rake did I pay?

Hmmmmm.
Average Rakeback tends to be 30% from what i've seen so a decent Rakeback would be 40%+ at a guess.

And that is as much as I can answer as I have no idea how many games you play to answer the other 2 questions. I think I heard someone say 3bbs an hour is a good rate but that's just $1.50 per hour so I must've got that wrong.

I shall guess though, at quite a lot as you play at twice the level I do and you play 18 tables versus my single table - and I would average $50. 75000/18 = 4167 hands per table. 4167/60 = 70 hands per hour per table.

I don't know but shall take a wild stab at $2000. Note there was no maths involved - just guessing. I suspect there is a lesson to be learnt here but I'm missing it Very Happy

thunder,

EV is an extremely important "term." it means Expected Value. its a way of calculating your equity in the pot.

if you have more of an "equity stake" in the pot, then you need to stick as much in as you can. because while you may not be getting all of your money back, neither are they. and they are making worse mistakes than you, at the moment. therefore, in the long run, the money comes to you. you need to be able to find situations where you are making the smallest mistake at the table, and jam the money in. thats where your bread and butter lies. sometimes you will both be making a "profitable decision," but yours is MORE profitable (like AA v KK preflop). therefore, your opponent still made the bigger mistake for that particular situation.

try not to get caught up in your session's winnings. they will swing back and forth. and, no offense, but at a 10 cent/20 cent table, you cannot take home $50 per session on the average. God forbid if its a limit game. its not possible to hold that kind of winrate over 3 months, let alone a "career." it is, however, one hell of a heater.

if you want to make a living, you need to look at $1/$2 limit or $100 NL at a minimum, imo. otherwise variance will crush your "paycheck" from time to time.

and, one other thing. factor out what you "need" to make and double it. if you NEED to make $500/week, then get to where you can make $1000(including rb/bonus). that way you can still take the $500 without dipping into your bankroll. besides, if you need a $4000 br to play 100NL, and you make $500 one week, you shouldnt take the $500......you still need to grow your bankroll, if you ever plan to move up higher.

grab a pen and some paper, and start "crunching numbers." you need to know EXACTLY what you need to make, right down to the BB/100 or BB/hour, how many tables you need to play, how many hands you need to play in a day, etc. and you need to know them EXACTLY before you consider doing this for income.

if i can find an article by Daniel Negreanu about his "hourly job," i will post a link to it, but it may take some time.

btw, if Ash is playing NL, his BB's are doulbed....or $1 and $2, not $0.50. so, 3 BB's/100 would be $3, not $1.50.

and to complete that exercise, you need to know the average pot size to calculate rake....and Rakeback. plus, with 8 (not 18) tables open, he is jamming about 500 full ring hands or 800 6max hands per hour!! that may be a bit high, but not much. if you look at his winrate (using your 3/100), 5 blocks of 100 at a 3 is 15 BB's/hour...or $45 (remember, its $1 for a BB, not $.50). add in Rakeback (which i dont care to figure) and its WAAAY better than a day job.

however, he, too, has days where he loses money. that $45/hour is an average. he only thinks of that. if he plays an hour and wins $200, he says to himself, "thanks for the $45." if he loses $200 in the next hour, he says, "thanks for the $45." while his computer tells him he has only broken even.....he knows he has actually made $90. see that? thats how you need to think about things.

*Last edited by Thunder on Fri, 05 Oct 2007, 12:19pm; edited 2 times in total*

Chopper,

Thx for the reply. My head hurts so I have more q's. if you feel it's best to do it via pm, rather than bloat a thread, just lemme know.

Easy things 1st, yeah, what I need to make - double it. It's what I was getting at in my post when I mentioned being too close for comfort.

I played microstakes for about 2 weeks. I entered with $20 (max buy in) each time. I finished between $50 and my best ever of $110. Sure, somedays I lost my $20 and had to reload - which meant a lower profit margin. I only reached these figures with all ins. Apart from that it was painfully slow as most of the time people folded to my raises and I'd scoop........30c! Do that 10 times in a row and it's still only $3.

As said though, I'm not looking at going pro yet. But I long for the day when I can Very Happy

And I am glad it's waaaaaaaaaay better than a day job!

Now onto the head hurting stuff.....

Ash's figures
1) you need to know the average pot size to calculate rake.
Yes but I have no idea of knowing this.

2) he is jamming about 500 full ring hands or 800 6max hands per hour
How do you know this?

3) remember, its $1 for a BB, not $.50
But he said he plays at .25/.50 so isn't the bb .50 - hence 5x (3/100) = $22.5 as opposed to $45?

And was I right with the 3bb per hour?

4) if he plays an hour and wins $200, he says to himself, "thanks for the $45." if he loses $200 in the next hour, he says, "thanks for the $45." while his computer tells him he has only broken even.....he knows he has actually made $90. see that? thats how you need to think about things.
Errr no. I don't see that (and am feeling really donkey-ish right now!). All I see is that if he win then loses$200, he's broke even - not up $90.

EV
I know EV stands for Expected Value. And that'e as much as I grasp.

Quick question before I ask about your answers: do the top pros do EV calculations? As said, I've seen DVDs by Negreanu, Helmuth and Gordon yet none mention EV.

And also, isn't EV supposed to be hard to calculate? Certainly not quick enough to beat the online timers.

1) if you have more of an "equity stake" in the pot, then you need to stick as much in as you can
Not sure what you mean by this. All I know is that with a good hand, I shove more money in than with a bad one.

If I have 99, bet 4xbb and the flop comes KAA, I'd normally slow down but are you suggesting I push more money in as I've already invested?

2) and jam the money in. thats where your bread and butter lies. sometimes you will both be making a "profitable decision," but yours is MORE profitable (like AA v KK preflop). therefore, your opponent still made the bigger mistake for that particular situation.
This sounds just like standard poker play and knowing your preflop stats and odds/outs. Eg: I know AA is a 4 to 1 favourite over any other pocket pair so.......jam the pot.

3) Going back to the example I read on EV, you have scored a flush as you hold 10d and Jc. The article went on about what if your opponent had K or Q club, what if he would bet with any club, what if he would fold with any club other than a K or Q, what if he had no club, what if he would fold to any bet etc. The permutations were mad and above all, know one can know what an opponent will do until he does it. I really can't see how any good player will go through this rigmarole everytime they''re in a flush situation. But hey, I'm new so what do I know? Wink

All in all, I know what EV means - but that's about it. Utilising it is another. And even when I see the figures - +5Ev - it doesn't mean anything to me.

Embarassed

Quiz answers - My winrate was 3.92BB/100 hands, but considering the softness of the games an awesome player could prolly easily get 5-6, if not more. Hourly rate was $17/hr and I made $2,934. I gave away $3670 in rake. (!)

That quiz was designed to make you realise that:-

a) Long term, despite a decent winrate, the hourly isn't actually that good at all.. Remember, this is over 8 tables, not 1.
b) Rake is a bitch and means a lot!

EV - I'm not that good at it but I know the basics. Here's a copypasted couple of paragraphs from another site:

[quote=pokertips.org]If you comb through Poker Strategy books or articles written on this website, you will repeatedly find assertions that poor poker players may win money in the short run but will lose money in the long run. The converse is true for professional and very good players. They may lose money in the short run but will generally win in the long run.

Why is this exactly? It is because of a concept known as expected value (EV). Expected value is your expected return on a wager. For example, suppose you made a bet with me on a coin flip. If it is heads, I give you $100. If it is tails, you give me $1. Should you theoretically take this bet (assuming that the coin is fair and has a fifty-fifty chance of landing on heads or tails)?

Definitely! There is a 50% chance of it landing on heads, meaning you win $100. Thus, your expected win is $50 (0.50 * $100). If it lands on tails, you lose $1. Thus, your expcted loss is $0.50 (0.50 * $1). Your expected profit is the expected win minus the expected loss. Thus, your expected profit is $49.50.

Obviously, you will not win $49.50. You will win $100 or lose $1. However, you should view the bet as "winning" $49.50.[/quote]

Here's a real life example of EV which I'll make up as I go along (known by Sklansky as expectation):

-- Warning, this might be totally incorrect, but the concept is there --

We have the nuts on the river and we're deciding how much to valuebet. The pot is $50. We think our very careful opponent has something between TPTK and 2pair.

We think this:

- If we bet $10, our opponent will call 100% of the time. (As in with 100% of his range)
- If we bet $25, our opponent will call 50% of the time.
- If we bet $50, our opponent will call 20% of the time.

So in terms of the river only, betting $10 will net us $20. (Our bet + his call)
Betting $25 will net us $25 ($25*2)/2 = 25
Betting $50 will net us $20 ($50*2)/5 = 20

Therefore betting $25 has the highest EV.

I'm not much of a maths person myself, so I tend to learn things like that intuitively until they come naturally - I found it fairly awkward putting that stuff into mathematical language.

ash, you and me may be a little the same. i couldnt even do more than glance at your EV examples.

and, youre right, from what i understand about EV. certain bet sizes carry different EVs, but i dont care that deeply, either. i go by feel and try and keep my bets roughly the same. 2/3 - 3/4 pot on flop and turns, 1/2 pot on river if its for value (or if i want it to look like the nuts, but am scared), full pot if i want you out. if i raise you, its coming at the pot or 3.5X your bet. that usually covers odds and such, too. my strength comes in that you dont know what i am betting...sets, draws, whiffed AK, TPTK, middle pair in the hole, ragged two pair....you just dont know, you only know that its something i like.

down at our limits, and yours too, thunder, changing bet sizes according to EV calcs doesnt make that big a difference, imo. these fools are calling or folding.

its good to know, if you can take the time to learn, but i just dont have the patience/discipline to make myself study it that hard.

Thunder, pm'ing is fine, but i am going to answer direct questions here because others need to learn this stuff, too, and i need to be corrected if i'm being a complete dufus. if i mess up, someone will catch me...i promise.

Thx for the responses. You two don't go by it much and prefer feel - so do I.

You have to bet $10 to win 8, but betting 10 still loses 10. It's been a while since I was in a math class but...

While we are asking questions though, what is 1o nl? On Stars the max buy in is 10 on .02/.05 and .05/.10.

the latter is 10NL. standard is 100X the big blind in NL.

A few more random poker things.

So Ev is EXPECTED VALUE - how much you can expect to get out of your opponent. I don't know what the figures mean, or how they are arrived at, but essentially that is EV, correct? If you bet too large you can scare him off, if you bet too small then you aren't getting maximum payoff.

As TAGG is the defacto play recommended these days, and such a play involves NOT flat calling the blinds or giving free cards, then why do so many pros do it? We've all heard about not giving the blinds a free flop, that you need to limit the opposition and that if you think your hand is good enough to call with then it's good enough to raise with. And as for giving free cards.....

not sure if this was already stated.

Expected Value is how much you stand to win or loose based on a decision, not how much you will win from a villain. That's implied odds. There are stickies with good examples, or maybe it's the strategy section.

Pros aren't playing with loose passive fish, a standard TAGG would get destroyed vs pros.

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