Comments: How To Win At MTT Poker

{Comments re: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/forum/poker-3027.htm }

I have a few questions for Soupie and everyone who replied to his post. I stumbled on to this website last week at work, fantastic!!! I browsed every nook and cranny of this site and re-read Soupie's post about 5 times including all the replies. Why can't you find this advice in the so called experts books? I have a few specific situations I have trouble with that would really improve my tournament play, hopefully you guys can help me. Even if you don't answer my questions keep the great tournament posts coming. Let me say before I start that I haven't been playing poker for very long so I am kind of a novice!

Call, call, call, call. I think the first book I read talked about the calling stations. I'm not a calling station but in the past week I have come to the conclusion that calling a bet is not good even in an raised pot. I seem to have switched from tight passive(didn't work) to tight/loose aggresive. Every time I "limp in" I get in trouble and can't seem to get out of it. Betting or raising seems to give you the power over your opponents. Now the problem, pocket pairs! 88 - 22, even pocket 9's and 10's sometimes. The situation could even apply to flopping second pair. Lets say your stack "2,500 chips" in a tournament the blinds are 100/200 and you catch a pocket pair. If I decide to play this, I do it with a 3bb bet always now because I hate limping (soupie). Is this wrong? Obviously if I don't catch my set on the flop with an overcard in it I could be in trouble. If I had a big stack, my next move would be the same bet again, just to find out some information about my opponents cards. If somebody made an easy call or re-raise I would probably figure I was beat and drop it at the next opportunity. But, with 2,500 hundred in chips the second bet would really hurt with the increasing blinds. If I check or call, "game over" I just showed my weakness. If I'm lucky I get a free card, if I call a bet and miss the turn I'm in no better shape.

My next question is pocket pairs in a raised pot providing the raise is not more that 3 or 4bb. I am inclined to re-raise or fold depending on my opponent. I just don't like to limp. Their are a lot of weak players that will raise under the gun with Ace whatever. If the flop isn't to scary you can trap them, but you may be trapping yourself also. Again remember this is with a moderate stack of chips. But if you just call his bet you only have one option, if you miss the flop check and fold. If I drop them early and catch my set after I folded I feel sick to my stomach.

Let me justify my actions to this point, although I am really looking for opinions. If you limp in with any two cards you decide to play, small pocket pairs, suited connectors whatever you fail to do two things: 1) Show the strength that could steel a pot 2) Eliminate weak drawing hands that limped as well like J3o, if the flop contains a jack you loose with your pocket 10. The blinds are good for that. I love to see a flop for free from the BB. You may be scratching your head with the suited connectors comment! In a hand the other day I limped 10 9s and caught two pair on the flop. I lost to a straight! His hole cards, J 7o!!!!!! He caught an 8 on the turn gutshot calling my 4bb bet. I think this was my mistake, I got greedy. I should have bet more on the flop but I thought I was ahead and I wanted all of his chips.

Rebuy tournaments. At what blind level should you just move on to another tournament. Lets say its a 1,500 chip rebuy and the blinds are 300/600 is it time to leave? Somedays I think it's just not your day! A side note, I have always tried to play tournaments without rebuying at all. I have had some success but I now believe that was a mistake. If I gambled a little more early I might just get a nice stack for later.

ALL IN. Just today I decided I am only going all in with pocket pairs or a flopped pair like KK. I have lost more chips "all in" with my nemisis "AK" than any other hand. Pocket 9's look pretty good when AK misses which for me is always. Comments are welcome. Also does anybody know the odds of catching an Ace or a King with 5 cards to come, I would love to know ie. preflop.

I would really love some strategy tips for short handed final table play 2,3,4 players left. I am very weak in this area. Starting hand requirements must drop but how far? Is Q2o worth playing or any face card.

What do you do when the big stack late in the tournament is at your table and stealing all the blinds because he can? I really don't blame him because I would do the same thing, but they really hurt you when you need to do the same thing.

An interesting side note. I played a little .25/.50 no limit ring game for the first time in a while using some of my tournament strategies. I didn't have much time unfortunately and had to leave a few dollars down but every hand I played with a bet or a raise. I caught some good hole cards when I sat down and I stole a few pots also. The people playing reacted big time to this strategy, the big stack and another player left. The remaining players didn't know which direction to go, I was planning on switching gears for a while "slowing down and then coming back at them again. I know I could have had a owned that table and its the first time I have felt that way playing cash games. I think the power of a bet forces your opponents use poor judgement in situations that would be easy if they could get away cheap. I know one guy caught top pair on the flop and when the Ace came on the turn, I slammed him with a 4bb bet and he folded like a cheap suit. I am working now every time I play on polishing the rough edges in my game. I still do a lot of stupid sh*^*t from time to time.

Sorry for the length of this post. Like I said this is by far the best forum I have seen and I had a million questions while reading the posts here. Keep the great posts coming!!!!!!

Welcome

It looks to me like you have a good basis, but have a few fundamentals to work through(been there Smile

). I'll start with pocket pais 22-TT

With a decent stack and blinds at about 1/25th your stack you limp with pocket pairs, if you are 3xbb raiseing these things you are throwing money away. Remember its just a pair. you have a 12% chance or so to hit a set, or just about 1 out of every 8 times you go with it. Thats not a big chance and one overpair ruins your day. This is a broad and not detailed on how to generally handle PP's.

Limp and fold. Why? if you limp you give yourself opportunity to see a cheaper flop. If you miss on the flop and there are 2 overcards out there its a definite fold about 95% of the time. 1 Overcard and you are still in trouble, flush draw? straight draw? fold fold fold. Sometimes you'll set on the turn or river if you play it, but that one 7% chance isn't worth the amount of money you will lose, or the tourney's you will bust out from.

----------------------

AK, great weak hand. I no longer call all ins with this puppy, unless its in specific situations (heads up, 3 handed, maybe even 4 handed depending on blinds). I will push All in with this about as often as I call all ins with this. Its a good hand to see a flop and hopefully pair it up, but if you don't you MUST lay this hand down.

---------------------

I used to play the exact same way you do, I ended up losing a lot of money, busting out early in a lot of tournements, I found this great thing called playing aggressive. I seemed to do well, but ended up losing. There is a time to be a ggressive and a time to not.

---------------------

Rebuy's, People tend to loosen up in rebuy's and just throw the chips away, if you see yourself doing this then you need to stop, exspecially if your in the position of "I need to place top 20 just to break even"

----------------------

I'll leave shorthanded play to another post i have some work to crank through Smile

.

Alright, first off to address your pocket pairs problem (The PPP(I'm clever(And fairly subdivided))). I love it when I see small raises when the blinds are still managable and on the flop they bet the same amount. It's a weak bet and an easy call by drawing hands as well as hands that beat you. If you arn't willing to stake your tounry on it, don't play PPs out of position. They're a great blindstealing hand IMO. Gives you a little confidence to make a 4BB bet from the button, CO or any late position.

Now you've decided to play pocket 8s for a 3BB raise. Flop comes one over, lets say a king. The king is a bad card in your mind becuase it represents a hand that can beat you.. but could that king also mean the same thing to the other guy? A 3BB bet looks like a weak follow through and a great place to reraise and take the pot. However a 6-7BB might make him think you're rolling with AK.

Before I go on, my table image in tournys is a very tight (nigh rockish) very agressive player. If you play the right cards and bet them hard, you'll notice people calling you down with fairly weak hands. You should have developed this image from your tight play in the early stages of the MTT (As written by Soupie)

My general rule of thumb is, I like to make hard bets on flops that few hands will hit hard. If I've got pocket 8s and the flop comes j 7 3 and I bet the pot leaving me with a little over half my stack left it tells the rest of the table that I'm pot commited and can't be bluffed (Why would I fold when half my stack is in there?) So they need atleast Ace Jack to call that bet and seldom do they have it.

But if you arn't prepared for such a risk, try to limp and set with your pocket pairs and hope no one notices.

In a recent tourny, I was shortstacked with 7s and decided to play. I made a 4BB raise and the flop came K 10 3, Great flop! I made a pot sized bet (9BB, half my stack) and took it home. Why make a pot sized bet with third pair? Becuase he checked it to me and if I check behind him, unless i turn a set, i've lost the pot becuase I can't call his bet. And if he puts me all in, I can fold knowing I was beat. Sure Id be left with 9(ish)BBs but that's just enough to find some suited high cards and push.

You don't see many people raising UTG with Ax late in a tourny becuase they've all busted out within 4 minutes of the get go. If It's an UTG raise of 4BB, I'm letting go of 10s and worse. I'll make my deicision with Jacks or queens. And I'm always pushing with Aces or Kings.

Tom,

Most of your questions will be answered in time and with more experience. With your level of enthusiasm however you will learn rather quickly, so not to worry.

The so called expert books have never been written on this type of poker to my knowledge. No limit holdem tourneys in the online format require adjustments in strategy due to the short intervals and the relative unreadability of your opponents compared to live tourneys.

Pocket pairs need to be evaluated by their relative strength, your need for chips, your table position, and most importantly, what type of action you are facing. I sense that you have a lot of anxiety when dealt a pocket pair because you immediately feel you have to win the hand. Not so at all. I toss a lot of pocket pairs before the flop. A pair of 3's into an active field from first position is most often an exercise in self flaggelation. There are much better uses for your chips. I routinely toss pairs as high as QQ and once in a great while KK into heavy action. Like I said, I can find better uses for my chips. I would rather raise 6-7 on the button with an unraised pot then call a raise with 99. If i do decide to play the 99 I probably will push as that gives me 2 ways to win, the raiser can fold or I can win at showdown.

Next, here is your tongue lashing for the day. Break this habit immediately. What happens after you fold a hand is completely irrelevant to correct play. Even a 2-7 has its day in the sun.

Thanks for the replies, I picked up a lot of usefull info as before. I have another quick question, but I'm on my way out the door right now. I'll save it for tomorow. Thanks Again!!!

If this thread doesn't start some good discussions... I don't know what will.

I think a lot of this stuff is still great, and some other stuff is kind of outdated. For example:

{acronym Renton hates} sticky

I thought it might be fun to bring this stuff back up for disussion again. I will readily admit some of it very dated, but still relevant certainly for tourneys say 20 and under buy in. If you want to discuss why it is wrong, I am all for it, just bring up a point, tell me why I am/was wrong and I will be happy to respond.

Cheers

In post 2 you said

Ideally, you get all your chips in against 1 opponent. I can not think of 1 situation you want to play a multiway pot with aces. With 5 or more opponents, your aces actually are a dog to win the hand, depending on your opponents cards. (no I didnt run an simulations, and maybe slightly off on the number 5, but the point is still valid)

Cheers

I am glad that I read that so that I can now add "flop the joint" to my poker vocabulary. I also will now flop more rigs.

Seriously, I wish I had seen this when I first joined. Excellent read. I will have comments/questions later.

Chardrian & soupie,

I believe that strategy goes through a cycle.

A long time ago, poker was full of horrible passive players who never raised unless they had a big hand. This meant that if you got a big pair or AK, you could re-raise and be pretty sure you were gonna get paid off. There was little reason to re-raise without a huge hand so no one did it.

When people started stealing blinds more often, the re-raise became a powerful bluff against decent players who were used to giving it credit for a big hand every time.

Now everyone is re-raising liberally and I had to laugh when I read soupie post that Rizen was the only one who did it. My response to the re-raising craze is to steal the blinds less often and when I do raise, I'm prepared to call a shove with some less than stellar hands. This leads to fun situations where for example I raise ace-rag to 3 BB from the small blind, a pocket fives all-star shoves from the BB and I insta-call and laugh as my hand holds up and he berates me in the chat box. So essentially things have come full circle with regards to pre-flop raising.

There are other examples of plays that I occasionally make as a bluff because I know that everyone gives them credit for being a monster most of the time. For example cold-call flop, raise the turn. Once people catch on, it's time to change gears again.

This is the reason why advice that may have been good three years ago is outdated today.

mcat: That post is gold.

Similar changes have happened in cash NLHE and LHE.

Well, thanks Soupie. I'm basically a sit'ngo player and have had some success on Full Tilt. I then became interested in MTTs so I tried to find some information about it. I tried playing the 26 dollar tourney, followed much of your advice and my own reads and got busted right out of the money. I tried another of those on the next day and got busted in the first hour. Players on that levels were really agressive with not much in their hand, everybody was trying to double up early, raises were not respected even if they were 6-7xBB, and I realised it wasn't my cup of tea. So I went back to my regular sng grinding and felt better about my game. Then I compared the blind structure between the 24$ and the 75$ tourney and realised that the 75S had twice as much time between the blinds going up. I thought this might work for me and maybe my skill will be more of a factor. So I signed up, it was a shorthanded table, pot limit holdem. I played my A game, followed much of your advice, had great reads, a couple of big laydowns QQ and KK when that A hit and was building my stack steadilly and patitently. Didn't have insanely great cards, but I waited and really got involved with best of what I got. Just before the money I became the short stack due to a bad beat, but I survived to the money and I was quite relieved so I was more courageous to make some plays and suddenly I was at the final table, and the moment (hours) later heads up. Finished 2nd, got nice paycheck. I want to thank you sincerly for all your advice, I found it very useful, especially the advice on recognizing weakness and strength at the table. I'm looking forward to your future posts. Regards, Baboo

Hey soupie I read your entire thread and it has helped me a ton. However I am still lacking in my mid tournament play. I seem to have trouble knowing when to start to loosen up and when I do loosen up for the most part my flops don't hit. I'm not sure if it's me starting to loosen up to late and making bad calls or not but here is an example I just had.

I play at Full Tilt and I am trying to get better at the $3 + .30 90 seat SnG's.
They're a turbo tournament with double stack.

Starting out with 3k chips and the blinds start out 15/30 and increase every 5 minutes. I stick with the Tight is Right theory in the early stages and I am finding more often then not I am not getting much. I follow the fold fold fold fold fold and fold some more, making sure that if i do get a monster to play. When I hit my monsters I usually play them for a good amount of chips and find myself able to land in or very close to the money.

But here is where things don't go my way. I get no monsters and my pot steals are just getting called constantly. I see that my chip count now has 20 BB's and I try to loosen up and widen my hand range from mid to late position but it seems i get reraised or miss my flop entirely. I figure its only a couple of hands, I may hit one of them and double up but by that time I have 10 chips with 1k chip blinds and I am still in trouble. This happens to everyone I know but I am wondering if I am playing wrong and dooming myself.

When I am in this spot I will raise with things like AQ and try to build up the pot and bring home the goods but I get reraised all in. I figure I am screwed either way at this point because with Anties now I am gonna be out a third of my chip stack. I make the call and they turn over AK to my AQ. I bust out in the teens or early 20's finishing off the money which is the top 9 places. I try to raise the pot with mid+ suited connectors and I try to limp in late with K10 or KJ to see if I hit. AA-88(drops down lower if i only have 10 BB's left), AK-A10(also drops with 10 BB's left), KQ-K10, 6-7 suited+ and one gapper suited 7-5+.

So I am not really sure what I should do. Should I loosen up sooner? Say when my stack has 30 or even 40 BB? Or should I do the opposite? Change my hand selection? Any help will do if you can. Thanks!

Poker Forum

Join Our Poker Community!

Poker Forum Index

Multi-Table Tourney Tactics

Comments: How To Win At MTT Poker

Poker Forum Index

Multi-Table Tourney Tactics

Comments: How To Win At MTT Poker