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Posted: Mon, 12 Mar 2007, 1:01pm Post subject: NLHE T&P - Week 10 Discussion p. 206-230 |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3301
WPP: 85
Location: practicing mindfulness
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This week's section deals with calling and making preflop all-in raises. It is mainly applicable to tournament situations, but can also be applied to shortstacked cash game scenarios. There's a fair amount of math, so please ask questions if you need clarification.
1. The chart on p. 209 outlines hand ranges for profitably calling all-in preflop ranges for a variety of raiser hand ranges and stack sizes. What can we conclude from this about the importance of making moves in tourneys before your M gets too low? What, if anything, about this chart surprises you?
2. Can you find practical uses for the Sklansky-Chubukov rankings?
3. On p. 219-220, S&M describe the difference between robust and vulnerable pre-flop hands. What's the difference and how should it affect your pre-flop move-in decision making? |
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Posted: Tue, 13 Mar 2007, 2:34pm Post subject: |
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Flush
Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 252
WPP: 261
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1.And it was said this book is not about tournaments. We, cash players are probably not used to situations like this so it would be good if some SNG expert (or multitable tournaments, because SNG's are more about survival) could tell something about this ranges and comment on them. It seems pretty useful for me, so I want to know if I can help with these charts. This is what I wanted since I started playing SNG's (and losing in them, so I moved to cash games).
It is surprising how he advises playing against a guy who moves in every hand - calling with a hand like 86s when you are getting 6 to 5 odds - isn't that like you are gambling with any two then? It seems pretty sick. Tell me a couple of hands where 86s is a HUGE favorite. I bet you don't find them.
Sklansky does not include your M here. For example, you are in a tournament situation and the guy is moving in every hand. Of course, by his calculations you can call profitably with 86s, but do you want to risk your whole tournament on a gamble like this? It is just insane, how he advises to play against these very loose guys. However, he tells an example when you are in SNG and you cant call all in with QJs even if it is a profitable call. How this translates to bigger tournaments when you are not near the bubble or are you playing for win only? (We know that Sklansky plays big tournaments to make money, while some of us play them to win).
Some pretty sick situations on these very loose range, however.
2. Actually you work on calculating here, how likely is it, that when you push, opponent has a hand worth calling? In practice, you have to include the posibility that he has nothing or that he will fold the best hand, because villain is not computer.
3. Robust hands are hands that can be called profitably with large numbers of hands (assuming your opponent is a computer and knows what you have), but when they are called, they are not a big underdog (like 76 vs AK). Vulnerable hands cannot be called so often, but when they are called, they are a big underdog (like A3 vs AK).
Here is the way I look at it: If you have a small stack and BB has big stack, you should be more likely to push with 76s than with A5o (you would probably push both however), because if big stack has a hand with an ace in it, he will call, while he won't call with 64s. There was a discussion about similar topic in SNG forum.
This is an interesting topic (probably the most in this book for me) so maybe we should tell about this chart in SNG forum because they are probably more experienced that cash game players who mainly read this book and tourny players might help us. |
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Posted: Tue, 13 Mar 2007, 4:39pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3301
WPP: 85
Location: practicing mindfulness
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Nice post.
| The Odds God wrote: | | Sklansky does not include your M here. |
He doesn't, but the three columns represent 3 different M's for your opponent and you can assume that you cover him. Of course by how much will definitely affect your decision.
Another problem I have is that the columns aren't good approximations of the odds you'll face in a tourney situation (unless you're in the BB, have open-limped and gotten raised, or raised and have been re-raised). In the situation where a player in front of you has open-pushed, only the first first column (6 to 5 odds to call) is reasonable, b/c villain would have an M of 5. The second column (3 to 2 odds to call) would mean that villain has an M of 2, and the third column (2 to 1 odds to call) would mean villain has an M of 1. Almost no one waits to get that short-stacked in tourneys. But if you just remember the odds and are decent at calculating them in your head quickly, it's still helpful. And when you're in the blinds, or have already put money in the pot, you'll face more decisions covered by columns 2 & 3. |
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Posted: Wed, 14 Mar 2007, 2:46pm Post subject: |
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Flush
Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 252
WPP: 261
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Especially I might find the chart helpful in situation when someone raises you reraise on a resteal and he comes over the top or you raise and he reraises. In this situation, it is important to know when you are "priced in". So this chart might help (besides your stack size, of course - odds don't matter so much - almost nothing - when you are out of tournament if you lose ).
What do you think about calling with a hand like 86s against a guy who moves in every hand? Isn't that -EV, as I said before? |
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