Turning Pro. Potential Pitfalls and advice needed

make sure you play somewhere with Rakeback.

good luck man. keep us posted.

...and Irisheyes, your new avatar is incredible. it makes me want to do the "boat motor" thing

http://www.audiosparx.com/sa/play/port_lofi.cfm/sound_iid.56768

I can't believe I found this.

Update??

Still 3 weeks from goin full time, work wanted me to stay on a bit and I agreed. if nothing else to increase my bankroll

Bought a few new books and among them a fantastic one written my Mark Blade called "The Essential Guide to playing for a living"

If you are thinking of turning pro YOU MUST BUY THIS 1st. Wish I had although it wouldnt have made much difference to my decision

Anyway Ive got myself all set up now with a proper desk, 21" screen etc set up away fromthe TV and surrounded by my poker musings. Done all my maths etc on my ROI's and all I need to do is get through 100 $50 turbo sng's (my playground) and I'll make about $1280 conservatively a week. Two tabling that'll take me about 25 hours so will leave some time for reflection/study and a few MTT's

My results have been good lately, just missed a couple of final tables (12th/13th) in 700 player buy ins after playing almost perfectly then knocked out with my Ak losing to Aj then my 10-10 to A4. OPR ranking is still just under 98%. Building my roll steadily on the turbo sitngoes, despite burning about $400 when drunk lol must stop that. I only quit that night when I realised I couldnt see my cards Embarassed

I turn into a belligerent hyper bluffing lunatic when drunk hahahah oops

I'll post here after/during my 1st week. My last day at work is 20th October. But i might take off for a short holiday, 8 years with a corporate...think I deserve one

I just found this.

My thoughts: I've been a poker pro on here as long as some of the more distinguished names, and longer than many who have made much more than me. Although my student status exemplifies me somewhat as a pro, I still consider myself one.

First off, BMX, you're an awesome player, but you're like what, 18 or 19? Someone who has never worked more than a part time job at a mcdonalds (or other shitty high school job) doesn't really know how horrible it is to get up at 6 am, go to work and come home miserable, only to do it again tomorrow. You can imagine it, but how can you know truly how it feels? I'm not saying I know this either, but to someone who is middleaged, he must think we live a dream life.

Ilikeaces: Again dude, I give you (and always have) mad props on your success and skillz, and, although like a year and a half ago you laughed at me for 'still going to school' i'm glad to see you are doing it yourself. You two are in one category, whereas myself and most other pros on this forum are in a completely different one.

One of you guys say that you need to make over $100 an hour and another says to have earned $100k before turning pro. This, in my opinion, are two horrible overstatements. You guys know how many years and/or education requirements it takes to make $100k/year or more at a job? The majority of people in this world cant even make 1/2 or 1/3 of that and still survive and be happy. I made like $55k last year from poker, while still in school and turning pro in June. That amount is more than the majority of my family members, all of which are considered middle class. You guys think that if you can't make $100 per hour its not worth, well, thats not true. I'd gladly put in 30 hours a week at $60 per hour than work 45 hours a week for $55k/year.

You don't need to make $100 an hour to be a pro, but you shouldnt be making any less than what you would be at your job (including taxes). $100/hour is equivalent to a 200k/year job, something that is very hard to come buy. If you can do $50 an hour, that's pretty kick ass regardless. You should have at least a year to a year and a half living expenses. Also, have a budget and make sure you are good with money. I think a bigger thing is to have a mental toughness and confidence that when the downswing comes, you can handle it.

Renton (who i consider pretty similar to myself) and cocco_bill have given the most clear cut advice in this thread. My advice on this matter is: do what makes you happy. If you hate your job, fucking quit; they don't care about you and you are replaceable. Maybe poker isnt right for you and maybe its not right for me either. But, you've got the right attitude in that, if you don't make it you lose some salary and you go back and live the way you were. It isnt a matter of life or death, and frankly, I would hate to always wonder "what could have been" if i never went pro.

Good luck.

First post.

I suppose this is a question that all self-employed people face, but has there been a discussion here about getting self-insured? I suppose it's even more difficult than your typical self-employed person when they see your line of work is "pro poker player". It would be ideal to have a spouse who's insurance from work you could piggy back off but none-the-less can any of the pros comment to that end on their experiences to date with obtaining health/dental/life insurance in the US?

Heck have pro poker players even tried to collectively bargin a group plan with any insurance companies?

I feel like there may be a market for professional poker advisors, who would advise on the tax issues, self-insurance, etc.

Anyway, TIA for all comments.

I think it all comes down to what you need to get out of it. I'm in canada, so if I just needed to get away from my 9-5 grind to find something else to do. Part time work making $10k or $15k a year and playing poker may be all I need.(Not me necassarilly) My poker winnings are tax free, so if I'm making $25/ hr x 40=$1k plus benifits then if I can consistantly make $17 / hr x 40= $680 playing poker, I'm about break even minus the benifits. If I take a part time job and make $200 after taxes a week it lowers my necassary income from poker to $480 a week. Now I take into account my commute costs me $75 a week in gas, now my income needed from poker is $405. Meaning if I play poker for 40 hrs a week,( I do that some weeks with a job) I need to make just over a $10 /hr playing poker. Last I checked, that's .2 BB/HR @ $50NL amirite?

I understand the ideas that you guys are saying about needing the bankroll for your living and downswings. But shit man, I'm 42 with 20 years in this industry and need a break. give me something to wish for. I don't need $100k a year, fuck, I've been making just under 60K for a few years now and you guys may not know the grind involved. Is there any guys out there that have lived that dream. I'm 42, have a wife and kid, hate my job, has had to deal with moron bosses and coworkers and need to be home more often just because, I've been there done it, It sucks.

Warpe??? and whoever else was in that 35-54 age bracket???

im only 22, but I definitely know what the 9/5 grind is like.

*Last edited by rusticity on Fri, 29 Sep 2006, 3:03pm; edited 1 time in total*

Thanks for the response Nehmer. I suppose I'll give them a call.

Regarding the OP:

The hourly rate you need to make is definitely relative. It sounds like we have part-timers players/students arguing with someone trying to replicate a salaried job with benefits.

I think we can agree that if we're trying to replicate a salaried job with benefits with an hourly rate playing poker, you can't simply take the current salary divided by 2000 hours and conclude that's what I need to maintain the same quality of life / standard of living.

The question remains then: What's the multiplier for comparing an hourly poker wage with a salried job with benefits. If I earn 100k / year, could I quit and survive off $50/hr online 2000 hours of year cardplaying? Could I replace 50k with $25/hr?

There's pros and cons that can individually affect this conversion rate / multiplier for replicating a salaried job with poker earnings.

Pros to poker. These are personal reasons why one might accept a lower hourly wage playing cards.
1- How much you like your current job?
2- How much would you value a flexible schedule?
3- Does your current job actually require more like 2500 hours instead of 2000?
4- Do you have a long commute.
5- Does your job give your direct practice that will enhance your future earnings (as hours logged at the tables enhances hourly rate earned)
6- Do you have a spouse who's insurance discounts you can piggyback off of?

Cons to poker (why you need to make more per hour than your current salaried job)
1- Variance, poker would be like a sales job, you need reserves, because you don't make the same from month to month.
2- Self-Insurance is higher
3- No benefits (no Bonus/no 401k match/etc/etc)
4- Raises may be guaranteed with your current job.

I'm missing a lot here obviously, but it's a start.

The conservative number I keep hitting at is +50%. I would tend to think, that you might want to be able to replicate your salary/2000 times 1.5 .

So a salaried 50k worker should feel $37.5/hr would leave them very comfortable. A 100k should aim for $50/hr. I sort of think this accounts for the cons, and then on a personal level you can adjust down for any pros (listed above) that affect you on a personal level and would allow you to get by for less.

This relationship also is NOT linear of course. But feels conservatively right IMO (granted an opinion with no particular expertise) for the middle class range. If you're making 25,000 a year you probably don't have much in terms of benefits anyway, so I'd settle for no multiplier, and if I made a ton, well there's diminishing returns, and money really isn't an issue as much as personal happiness is.

Caveat - And it's a big one. This is from a non-pro looking out. I definitely seek feedback from both successes and failures on thought process in this post.

*********
Aside - Sample Sizes

I've searched a bit, but is there a good post/analysis on the number of hands/hours needed to feel comfortable with an hourly rate. I've used the stdev to do some Confidence Interval Analysis, but honestly don't feel too confident about what I was coming up with. If there's a thread out there with discussion on what # hands it takes to get within + or - $X of the true hourly rate, that would be great to look at. TIA.

Hey mate,
a Jafa here. Hope your career is going well. I haven't played the cash tables at Auckland Casino yet. Am I missing out here?

The online poker community will change if this bill passes as the amount of US player will dramatically drop.

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hi, consider not going pro now that the US has made online gambling illegal. A lot of the fish are americans.

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Turning Pro. Potential Pitfalls and advice needed