H0H2 Part 9 - Discussion

Everyone's favorite H0H chapter! Reading this for the first time really changed how I thought about and played NL tourneys. I'm just going to post a couple of very general questions, because what I'd really like to see here are hands posted from the various "zones" and moves made as a result. I'll go through my tourney hand histories and try to find a couple.

1. A couple of orange, borderline red zone hands.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Blinds-Antes (600/1200-50) - (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 (t21327)
CO (t40614)
Button (t15213)
SB (t18565)
Hero (t13265)
UTG (t25921)
UTG+1 (t69219)
MP1 (t35795)
MP2 (t45522)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9

, Q

.
7 folds, SB completes, Hero raises to 13265 (all-in), SB folds.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Blinds-Antes (600/1200-50) - (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 (t21277)
MP3 (t40564)
CO (t15163)
Button (t17315)
Hero (t14865)
BB (t25871)
UTG (t69169)
UTG+1 (t35745)
MP1 (t45472)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K

, 5

.
7 folds, Hero raises to 14865 (all-in), BB folds.

2. Now I'm back safely in the high orange/low yellow zone can make standard pre-flop raises again:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Blinds-Antes (800/1600-50) - (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t17127)
BB (t42614)
UTG (t12613)
UTG+1 (t14765)
Hero (t29180)
MP2 (t17578)
MP3 (t12012)
CO (t91332)
Button (t12726)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9

, 9

.
2 folds, Hero raises to t4000, 6 folds.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Blinds-Antes (1000/2000-75) - (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t34604)
SB (t39614)
BB (t21863)
Hero (t30705)
UTG+1 (t16828)
MP1 (t114345)
MP2 (t15076)
CO (t42564)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q

, K

.
Hero raises to t5000, 7 folds.

3. A tough decision in the orange zone at the FT. I went for it because CO had been aggressive, I definitely didn't want to call and play it OOP, I figured I had some fold equity, 10K would be a huge addition to my stack, and the $ in this tourney didn't start getting really significant until you hit 4th place.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Blinds-Antes (1500/3000-75) - (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP2 (t10224)
CO (t74362)
Button (t101238)
SB (t58261)
Hero (t47072)
UTG (t24013)
UTG+1 (t88437)
MP1 (t18617)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, T

.
4 folds, CO raises to t10500, 2 folds, Hero raises to t47072 (all-in), CO calls t36497.

*Last edited by Eric on Tue, 10 Oct 2006, 9:28am; edited 1 time in total*

1. Let's summarize what the "zones" mean. M=stack/(blinds+antes). For example, at the start of many Stars SnGs the stacks are 1500, the SB is 10, the BB is 20 and the antes are 0. Therefore at the start of these everyone has an M of 1500/(20+10+0) meaning everyone has an M of 50.
Here's how Harrington describes the Zone System:
Green Zone: M is 20 or more
Yellow Zone: M is 10-20
Orange Zone: M is 6-10
Red Zone: M is 1-5
Dead Zone: M is less than 1
[HOH2 pages 129 to 130]

Next we'll clarify what Harrington means by Q. Q is the relation of your stack to the average stack.

How should our pre-flop strategy change in Yellow? In the upper Yellow Zone our pre-flop strategy may not have to change much, especially if our Q is really high(our stack is a lot higher than the average stack in the tournament). In the lower Yellow Zone we need to avoid small suited connectors, especially if our Q is below 1(our stack is lower than the average stack in the tournament).

How should our pre-flop strategy change in Orange?
When I first read part 9 I used to play the same regardless of where I was in the Orange Zone. Now I treat the higher levels of the Orange Zone differently from the lower levels. Either way first-in vigorish is on my mind in the Orange Zone:

Hi guys. Been looking forward to this discussion. Just wanted to post real quick and let you know, will post more later. More coffee first.

Hope this isn't a derailing of the discussion, but in single table SNGs I think that your stack in terms of BBs is more relevant than M. I know this ignores antes at PS but by the time the antes kick in the table is usually shorthanded so the impact of the antes in terms of chips they cpst per round is diminished.

I think you can lose value by pushing AI in the upper Orange Zone (which could be up to 15x BB) compared to making a standard raise. That said, I think in the upper Orange zone you need to be more selective with the hands with which you're making standard raises, I think they need to have a bit more showdown value than if you had, say, a 30x BB (M=20) stack.

Just discovered this, and I'm looking forward to getting back to my book and perhaps more specifically talk about elements. I keep a bookmark to the summary of the zones when playing SNGs, just to keep reminding myself.

I think that at the stakes I play ($5.50 SNG 1 to 5 tables) failing to pay attention to this is a common mistake. People get into the M<10 and yet won't get aggressive. This may be because they're gotten to the final table of a multi-table SNG and are desperately hoping to cruise into the money.

I use a little Excel sheet in the corner of my screen that I update so I can see my M and Q. I play at FullTilt, and since it has 9 players per table I also have it show me the Effective M. You may well drift down to 5 or 6 players at a non-final table for multiple orbits before tables consolidate - I sometimes wonder how much I should react to the substantial difference between M and Effective M in these cases.

I agree that I do see a first-in advantage (I tend to think of it as "first mover" advantage from game theory / business / warfare). Position EP1 suddenly has a power all of its own - those blinds are about to hit you, but if your Q is decent and your hand is decent, you can make some good space and help promote an aggressive image.

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H0H2 Part 9 - Discussion

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H0H2 Part 9 - Discussion