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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 3:13am Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 633
WPP: 174
Location: Location: Location
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| Fnord wrote: | Thinking about this more, really the best that comes out of it is that Online Poker won't be "Grey"-market anymore. It will go through the courts and I think round 2 in congress is inevitable.
Best case, it comes out legal and compeition drives down the rake as the big players enter the show. |
I like this analysis. Mostly because it's the most optimistic way to think about this issue realistically (of course, there is a worst case too...). |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 3:20am Post subject: |
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17169
WPP: 83
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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The real test of this issue is "Does this make the cover of the next issue of Newsweek, Time, etc.?" I guess that's where the real debate begins.
Do Americans believe that it's ok for 2 adults to wager money online over the outcome of cards? Considering it's the same idiots who think it's wrong to trade money for sex or put just about whatever you want into your own body and hap-harzardly trade liberty for "security" it will be interesting to watch... |
Last edited by Fnord on Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 3:24am; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 3:22am Post subject: |
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Flush
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 355
WPP: 148
Location: UK
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| biondino wrote: | | So, let me get this straight. Let's say a congressman had a bill which required every US citizen to smear themselves in excrement every Tuesday lunchtime. Could they then attach it to a "free cute kittens for all American children" bill and get it through that way? |
lol - yup. This kind of thing has been sent up in The Simpsons loads of times. |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 3:28am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 3173
WPP: 88
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
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I was assuming that 5 million Americans gamble online as a conservative effort. In fact, it's more like 8 million according to this article:
http://www.americangaming.org/Press/speeches/speeches_detail.cfv?ID=397
(and yes, even if 50% of them voted democrat already it's still a big number when elections are won by 0.1%. Anyway - Republican voters tend to be big on small govt, personal freedom etc. so I would have thought that they would be MOST upset by the govt's invasion of their rights.) |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 3:32am Post subject: |
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17169
WPP: 83
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| biondino wrote: | | Republican voters tend to be big on small govt, personal freedom etc. |
Republicans speak to these points, but their actions in the past 6 or so years have been quite the opposite. Also, it's the party of the Bible-thumpers who want to tell you how to live your life. |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 3:34am Post subject: |
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Straight Flush
Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 4055
WPP: 106
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
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| This is some bad news to wake up to........ |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 3:39am Post subject: |
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17169
WPP: 83
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| Renton wrote: | | America is all about the minority of people. Thats how all laws are created. Five people out of 300 million can't handle driving after they drink two beers, so we outlaw drinking and driving. 10% of gamblers are fucked up, so we make a law to eradicate gambling. |
You couldn't be more wrong. Also, your examples suck.
There are a lot of buisness interests that would love to see online gambling go away. This happened with VCRs, Printing Press, blah, blah blah, etc. Throw in the Bible-thumpers and it's a slam dunk.
Also, big buisness US Casinos probably sat on their hands this round. Grey-market online poker had to be a disaster for Harahs. They own the WSOP and have to depend on a bunch of Foreign Mah and Pops to run the most popular Satilites! |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 6:10am Post subject: |
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Straight
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 208
WPP: 47
Location: Miami
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bye bye PartyPoker
| Quote: | The Act is expected to be signed into law by President Bush within the next two weeks. If signed into law, it will immediately make unlawful the receipt by a gambling business of proceeds or monies in connection with unlawful internet gambling. The Act does not clarify the definition of unlawful gambling. However, as the first piece of Federal legislation dealing explicitly with internet gaming, it does make clear that the US government intends to stop the flow of funds from Americans to online gaming operators through criminal sanction. The Act also asserts that, under US law, a wager must be permitted under the laws both of the customer’s place of residence and that of the operator.
After taking extensive legal advice, the Board of PartyGaming Plc has concluded that the new legislation, if signed into law, will make it practically impossible to provide US residents with access to its real money poker and other real money gaming sites. As a result of this development, the Board of PartyGaming has determined that if the President signs the Act into law, the Company will suspend all real money gaming business with US residents, and such suspension will continue indefinitely, subject to clarification of the interpretation and enforcement of US law and the impact on financial institutions of this and other related legislation. | |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 7:16am Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 1476
WPP: 135
Location: moral high ground
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Can somone explain to me why the actual gambling sites like Party and Stars are freaking out? From what I can tell, U.S. law does not directly affect them at all. The only affected parties are banks, transaction systems like neteller, and the players who do the transferring. Unless I'm missing something, Party has no legal obligation to force its U.S. players to stop playing.
Secondly,
http://www.gambling911.com/Party-Gaming-Poker-Stars-100206.html
| Quote: | | The banks have almost an entire year to comply, however, the smaller banks have already stated they would not have the necessary resources in place to monitor such transactions. |
Typically what will happen (at least in my experience with new government Medicare laws) is that the new law will get passed, then everyone that is affected freaks out and says "we're not ready for this! Our systems aren't capable of getting updated fast enough to handle this!" And then the govt says "OK, we're going to create an implementation timeline for you that you need to be compliant by X date."
During the implementation period, there will be all kinds of debate as to what the law means, etc, and various legal battles will ensue, and in the mean time, the system moves on as it was. My guess is that it will take a couple years before all banks are compliant. Of course my experience is limited and doesn't extend to the banking industry..... But I can hope, right? |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 7:58am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Posts: 2775
WPP: 110
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Just a stupid question I'm sure, but what's the chance that these sites are banning americans so quick to get the uproar happening before it's too late. Could they just be afraid if they wait things could get worse. Is it a form of getting the players to organize and feel the effects of the possible ban while there is still time to do something about it. A short term hit for soem longer time gain.
Still think 9/11 was just an attack by terrorists.
Just my conspiracy mind acting up again. |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 8:11am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 3478
WPP: 51
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| Trainer_jyms wrote: |
Still think 9/11 was just an attack by terrorists. |
yes |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 8:22am Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 1061
WPP: 139
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This sucks a lot. But, now comes the personal responsibility part of the debate. This type of thing has been happening for a long long time in the US. The trading of personal liberties for magic beans because a politician screams "won't someone pleeeeaaase think of the children".
What have you, as americans, done to stop this. You may (or may not) have voted. Good for you. That is one small part of what must be done when your freedoms are being systematically attacked. The time to stop this type of thing from happening is long past. It should have happened some time before the illegal wiretapping of american citizens by the government. It should have happened before the US started holding POW's as 'detainees" and torturing them.
Even if it didn't happen before these things, action needed to be taken once these things were brought to light. What did the average american citizen do when they heard that their government was spying on them and recording their conversations, and that the large telecommunications companies were cooperating? nadda.
What did you do when you learned that your government was illegally holding and torturing prisoners of war.... again, not a god damn thing.
This is just the last in a long list of freedoms that have been lost in the US, and this is what sparks uproar?????
The fact that you may not be able to play poker anymore. Not torture, not wiretapping, not any of the other horrible things that your government has done in the name of whatever the fuck they do things in the name of.
I realize that this strikes close to home as we are all poker players here, so this affects us more personally. but we are all freedom loving people too, so i would hope that one of the previous aggressive acts by your government would have spurred you to action so that things did not get this far.
But, as it stands, there seems to be no stopping the fear mongering biggots in the american government, because nobody wants to get off of their asses and do something about it.
If this assault on YOUR personal liberties actually makes you get out of your chair and become politically active, then maybe this is a good thing. Maybe you can then continue to be active and attempt to stop your elected officials from destroying the world.
that is all |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 8:30am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3559
WPP: 97
Location: Your place or my place
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| FlyingSaucy wrote: | Can somone explain to me why the actual gambling sites like Party and Stars are freaking out? From what I can tell, U.S. law does not directly affect them at all. The only affected parties are banks, transaction systems like neteller, and the players who do the transferring. Unless I'm missing something, Party has no legal obligation to force its U.S. players to stop playing.
Secondly,
http://www.gambling911.com/Party-Gaming-Poker-Stars-100206.html
| Quote: | | The banks have almost an entire year to comply, however, the smaller banks have already stated they would not have the necessary resources in place to monitor such transactions. |
Typically what will happen (at least in my experience with new government Medicare laws) is that the new law will get passed, then everyone that is affected freaks out and says "we're not ready for this! Our systems aren't capable of getting updated fast enough to handle this!" And then the govt says "OK, we're going to create an implementation timeline for you that you need to be compliant by X date."
During the implementation period, there will be all kinds of debate as to what the law means, etc, and various legal battles will ensue, and in the mean time, the system moves on as it was. My guess is that it will take a couple years before all banks are compliant. Of course my experience is limited and doesn't extend to the banking industry..... But I can hope, right? |
Q. F. T. |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 8:34am Post subject: |
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Straight
Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 159
WPP: 67
Location: Boston
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| pgil wrote: |
What did the average american citizen do when they heard that their government was spying on them and recording their conversations, and that the large telecommunications companies were cooperating? nadda.
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Me? I slept better that night knowing that my govt was being pro-active in seeking out terrorists. No, I do not care that they can hear me ordering a pizza or talking with my friends. Not that I actually think they are.
| pgil wrote: |
What did you do when you learned that your government was illegally holding and torturing prisoners of war.... again, not a god damn thing.
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See above. |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 8:43am Post subject: |
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Flush
Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 477
WPP: 120
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That is just fucking stupid.
You cannot possibly support the unlawful holding of suspects, and then say the government can't ban poker.
If you want to give the government the right to tell the rest of the world to fuck off, and ignore prisoners rights, then I hope you don't expect them to uphold your right to play poker anytime ever. |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 8:47am Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 633
WPP: 174
Location: Location: Location
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There are lots of people like geoffm33 ... that's what allows our government to arbitrarily violate our liberity and the constitution in the name of security (and via the method of coercian by fear). We live in a country full of fascists.
Not my fault.
pgil, I see where you're coming from with the "where is the action" mentality, but the problem isn't that nobody is pissed off -- plenty of peole are. It's that they don't know what to do about it. |
Last edited by thenonsequitur on Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 8:50am; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 8:50am Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 1061
WPP: 139
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| geoffm33 wrote: | | pgil wrote: |
What did the average american citizen do when they heard that their government was spying on them and recording their conversations, and that the large telecommunications companies were cooperating? nadda.
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Me? I slept better that night knowing that my govt was being pro-active in seeking out terrorists. No, I do not care that they can hear me ordering a pizza or talking with my friends. Not that I actually think they are.
| pgil wrote: |
What did you do when you learned that your government was illegally holding and torturing prisoners of war.... again, not a god damn thing.
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See above. |
that was one of the most idiotic opinions ever expressed. you are fine with torture and spying on US citizens??
so if AL-Qaeda captures an American soldier and labels him/her an enemy combatant and tortures them, then its cool too. as long as they label them correctly.
because if you aren't, then you probably want your soldiers to be afforded the protections offered under the geneva conventions which prohibit that sort of thing. If you want them to apply to your soldiers, then you must allow them to apply to others as well, thats just kind of how the game is played. |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 8:54am Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 1061
WPP: 139
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| thenonsequitur wrote: | There are lots of people like geoffm33 ... that's what allows our government to arbitrarily violate our liberity and the constitution in the name of security (and via the method of coercian by fear). We live in a country full of fascists.
Not my fault.
pgil, I see where you're coming from with the "where is the action" mentality, but the problem isn't that nobody is pissed off -- plenty of peole are. It's that they don't know what to do about it. |
write a letter, write two or three. phone a congressman. attend rallies and protest marches. nothing scares politicians more than a great show of support for sending them packing. that is what rallies are for, they are sabre rattling. you show your opponents that you have half a million votes right here in this small part of the country that will kick their asses out of office, and others do it elsewhere in the country, and they start to get scared and backpeddle.
better yet, join a political action group. i am sure that the bush administration has spies in all of them so you should be able to search government records for the one that fits with your ideas. |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 8:56am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3037
WPP: 95
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| Quote: | "The only proper purpose of a government is to protect man's rights, which means: to protect him from physical violence. A proper government is only a policeman, acting as an agent of man's self-defense, and, as such, may only resort to force only against those who start the use of force."
Ayn Rand |
Since no one forces us to play poker, the government has no role here.
| Quote: | "An individualist is a man who says: "I will not run anyone's life - nor let anyone run mine. I will not rule or be ruled. I will not be a master nor a slave. I will not sacrifice myself to anyone - nor sacrifice anyone to myself."
Ayn Rand | |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 8:58am Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 633
WPP: 174
Location: Location: Location
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| Problem is, members of our current federal government offices get their ideas more from Mussolini than from Rand. |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Oct 2006, 8:59am Post subject: |
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Straight
Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 159
WPP: 67
Location: Boston
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| pgil wrote: | | geoffm33 wrote: | | pgil wrote: |
What did the average american citizen do when they heard that their government was spying on them and recording their conversations, and that the large telecommunications companies were cooperating? nadda.
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Me? I slept better that night knowing that my govt was being pro-active in seeking out terrorists. No, I do not care that they can hear me ordering a pizza or talking with my friends. Not that I actually think they are.
| pgil wrote: |
What did you do when you learned that your government was illegally holding and torturing prisoners of war.... again, not a god damn thing.
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See above. | | | | |
