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Posted: Sat, 23 Sep 2006, 4:07pm Post subject: H0H2 Part 8-1 (p. 1-62) Discussion |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3301
WPP: 85
Location: practicing mindfulness
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We're starting off Vol. 2 Part 8, Making Moves, this week. It would be really cool if people start posting hand histories demonstrating strategies Harrington describes, like the moves in this chapter. I've started playing MTTs again, so I'll post some when I come across them, but I'm sure there are veterans out there with hundreds of examples to draw from.
Some questions for this chapter:
1. Harrington thinks that bluffs are usually most effective against medium-stacked opponents. Do you agree? Can you think of specific situations when this isn't true?
2. Do you agree that your c-bet size should average ~1/2 pot?
3. On p. 10 Harrington states that when last to act on the flop, checking behind your opponent with a strong draw is a better play than c-betting. Do you agree?
4. On p. 15-19 Harrington discusses defending against c-bets. What's your general strategy? How does it change with relative position?
5. Do you check/raise often? In what situations?
Feel free to answer whichever of these you want and add some of your own. |
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Posted: Sun, 24 Sep 2006, 2:44pm Post subject: |
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Straight Flush
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 6662
WPP: 66
Location: Somewhere in middle america
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| Quote: | | 3. On p. 10 Harrington states that when last to act on the flop, checking behind your opponent with a strong draw is a better play than c-betting. Do you agree? |
I do not want to be moved off the hand if someone is wanting to CR a J. If someone has J8 and I hit, I am OK with losing a stack. Pretty rare the J checked twice against 4 opps.
UB Sun 200.
Getting Hand History Information...
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hand #35405116-40 at Sun5pm200-024 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
Started at 24/Sep/06 17:38:29
Moraine is at seat 0 with 3520.
Daniel Komen is at seat 1 with 2495.
NotoriousBIL is at seat 2 with 4865.
FlipMaker is at seat 3 with 3195.
StillTippin is at seat 4 with 2235.
Rossicity is at seat 5 with 3025.
Wyndo is at seat 6 with 3015.
browerkid is at seat 7 with 4655.
geoff1299 is at seat 8 with 8965.
WILBIL is at seat 9 with 2045.
The button is at seat 1.
NotoriousBIL posts the small blind of 15.
FlipMaker posts the big blind of 30.
Moraine: 9s Th
Daniel Komen: -- --
NotoriousBIL: -- --
FlipMaker: -- --
StillTippin: -- --
Rossicity: -- --
Wyndo: -- --
browerkid: -- --
geoff1299: -- --
WILBIL: -- --
Pre-flop:
StillTippin folds. Rossicity folds. Wyndo folds.
browerkid folds. geoff1299 folds. WILBIL calls.
Moraine calls. Daniel Komen folds. NotoriousBIL
calls. FlipMaker checks.
Flop (board: Jc Jd 8h):
NotoriousBIL checks. FlipMaker checks. WILBIL
checks. Moraine checks.
Turn (board: Jc Jd 8h 5d):
NotoriousBIL checks. FlipMaker checks. WILBIL
checks. Moraine bets 75. NotoriousBIL folds.
FlipMaker folds. WILBIL folds. Moraine is returned
75 (uncalled).
Hand #35405116-40 Summary:
No rake is taken for this hand.
Moraine wins 120.
---------------------------------------------------------------- |
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Posted: Sun, 24 Sep 2006, 7:18pm Post subject: hoh - 8 make my move |
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Two Pair
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 26
WPP: 270
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
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I think that bluffs on occasion are most effective against the medium/average stack. I also think that they are good against short stacks, as they don't want to play with me unless they have something to stand up with. I like the 2-3 person rule;it makes sense.
I'm not sure on #Q2. I would like to haer other people opinions on this. I do think that it should only be enough to get er done. I usually do half the pot if if preflop bet.\\
I would rather call then c/r raise draw when last(USUALY). Free card for my draw = yeah for my ass if i hit.
I don't really have one. DEFINITELY would like others opinions.
I check raise occasionally. When I feel I have good hand or feel that I could knock quite a few off with 2nd best. I like to have something to c/r. once in a while i bluff c/r. |
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Posted: Sun, 24 Sep 2006, 7:25pm Post subject: |
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Two Pair
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 26
WPP: 270
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
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[ast
FlipMaker is at seat 3 with 3195.
StillTippin is at seat 4 with 2235.
R 5.
7 ------ ----- 8
n ------- 5.
g \ / 5.
W \ -----------------------/ 5.
3 6
4444444444444444444444
NotoriousBIL posts the small blind of 15.
FlipMaker posts the big blind of 30.
Moraine: 9s Th
Daniel Komen: -- --
NotoriousBIL: -- --
FlipMaker: -- --
StillTippin: -- --
Rossicity: -- --
Wyndo: -- --
browerkid: -- --    
geoff1299: -- --
WILBIL: -- --
Pre-flop:
StillTippin folds. Rossicity folds. Wyndo folds.
browerkid folds. geoff1299 folds. WILBIL calls.
Moraine calls. Daniel Komen folds. NotoriousBIL
calls. FlipMaker checks.
Flop (board: Jc Jd 8h):
NotoriousBIL checks. FlipMaker checks. WILBIL
checks. Moraine checks.
Turn (board: Jc Jd 8h 5d):
NotoriousBIL checks. FlipMaker checks. WILBIL
checks. Moraine bets 75. NotoriousBIL folds.
FlipMaker folds. WILBIL folds. Moraine is returned
75 (uncalled).
Hand #35405116-40 Summary:
No rake is taken for this hand.
Moraine wins 120.
----------------------------------------------------------------[/quote] |
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Posted: Sun, 24 Sep 2006, 7:29pm Post subject: |
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Two Pair
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 26
WPP: 270
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
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[ast
FlipMaker is at seat 3 with 3195.
StillTippin is at seat 4 with 2235.
R************************************5.
7***===********************===***8
7*************-------***************5.
g*****\ /********8
W******\ -----------------------/*********5.
8*********************************6
4444444444444444444444
NotoriousBIL posts the small blind of 15.
FlipMaker posts the big blind of 30.
Moraine: 9s Th
Daniel Komen: -- --
NotoriousBIL: -- --
FlipMaker: -- --
StillTippin: -- --
Rossicity: -- --
Wyndo: -- --
browerkid: -- --
geoff1299: -- --
WILBIL: -- --
Pre-flop:
StillTippin folds. Rossicity folds. Wyndo folds.
browerkid folds. geoff1299 folds. WILBIL calls.
Moraine calls. Daniel Komen folds. NotoriousBIL
calls. FlipMaker checks.
Flop (board: Jc Jd 8h):
NotoriousBIL checks. FlipMaker checks. WILBIL
checks. Moraine checks.
Turn (board: Jc Jd 8h 5d):
NotoriousBIL checks. FlipMaker checks. WILBIL
checks. Moraine bets 75. NotoriousBIL folds.
FlipMaker folds. WILBIL folds. Moraine is returned
75 (uncalled).
Hand #35405116-40 Summary:
No rake is taken for this hand.
Moraine wins 120.
----------------------------------------------------------------[/quote] |
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Posted: Mon, 25 Sep 2006, 10:45am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3301
WPP: 85
Location: practicing mindfulness
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| drmcboy wrote: | I do not want to be moved off the hand if someone is wanting to CR a J. If someone has J8 and I hit, I am OK with losing a stack. Pretty rare the J checked twice against 4 opps.
UB Sun 200. |
This is a good example. Do you play it the same if the board is Jc 8h 2d? |
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Posted: Mon, 25 Sep 2006, 11:26am Post subject: |
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Straight Flush
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 6662
WPP: 66
Location: Somewhere in middle america
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more image dependent, but I am more likely to bet than board, to start builing a pot if I hit and someone has a modest hand like QJ/KJ and take the lead to maybe move them off later if they have something like 99 or A8 and I miss.
Also I think people are a lot less likely to CR on this board with TP than they are on the JJ board with trips - which I think it totally wrong. If I am OOP with a J on the JJ8 board, I will always lead out against multiple opps. if I am OOP with T9, I will always check, but often CR to try and rep the J and fold one Opp off an pair - this is especially true if the bet prices me out of a call. If there is a bet and a call I'll just come along because the price will usually be right and my FE is low. |
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Posted: Mon, 25 Sep 2006, 5:01pm Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 1063
WPP: 166
Location: Germany
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PG 29 " Back Alley Mugging "
When someone leads out on a flop of 8 6 2 and the turn is an Ace ... There was no PF raise ... If its checked to me and I bet this is an example of a BAM. Does everyone agree this would only work with one opponent in the hand? Or better yet HU ?
How much would you bet if you were pos and it were checked to you to accomplish taking down the pot?
Whats the difference between floating and BAM ?
Blinds are 100 / 200 - If it goes PF raise , you call , check check , check check , check .... Q on the river .. How much are you betting into a 800 dollar pot? What is a convincing bet if you have say 12 X the BB left in your stack ?
PG 33..
Delayed C bets - Is this smart only if you have overs or a draw? Is there any other examples on when it would be good to use this? If anyone has an example please use it .. Iam thinking you hit the flop and had something like TPGK and you check it then bet the turn when something lower hit or a non scary card... Am I right? |
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Posted: Mon, 25 Sep 2006, 8:36pm Post subject: |
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Administrator
Joined: 04 Dec 2003
Posts: 1742
WPP: 218
Location: on my laptop
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1. I agree that bluffs tend to work best against medium stacks. I think they work well against short stacks too when we're on the bubble.
2. The c-bet can be more than half the pot at times, depends on the situation.
3. In limit, semi-bluff bets with draws are profitable. In no limit Harrington is right that they are risky because of big check raises.
5. No, I don't check raise often. I usually bet out. There are times when a CR is necessary though, for example if I'm playing against opponents who know my style.
On a side note, here is one of my favorite quotes from part 8: | Quote: | | Some authors tell you to be careful when you flop the middle or bottom trips, because you might lose to higher trips. Nonsense. If you get knocked out of the tournament because you lost in a set-over-set confrontation, then it just wasn't your tournament. When your set gets outflopped, you're supposed to lose a lot of money. When I hear someone telling a story about how he shrewdly laid down middle set after some intricate chain of reasoning convinced him he was beaten, my quick (but silent) reaction is "Idiot." [HOH2 page 38] | |
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Posted: Wed, 27 Sep 2006, 1:57am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3301
WPP: 85
Location: practicing mindfulness
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| fasin8ing wrote: | PG 29 " Back Alley Mugging "
When someone leads out on a flop of 8 6 2 and the turn is an Ace ... There was no PF raise ... If its checked to me and I bet this is an example of a BAM. Does everyone agree this would only work with one opponent in the hand? Or better yet HU ? |
I wouldn't feel comfortable doing this OOP vs. more than one opponent, but in position maybe.
| fasin8ing wrote: | | How much would you bet if you were pos and it were checked to you to accomplish taking down the pot? |
It depends. Half-pot?
| fasin8ing wrote: | | Whats the difference between floating and BAM ? |
Floating is what you do first.
| fasin8ing wrote: | | Blinds are 100 / 200 - If it goes PF raise , you call , check check , check check , check .... Q on the river .. How much are you betting into a 800 dollar pot? What is a convincing bet if you have say 12 X the BB left in your stack ? |
Probably ~1300 in the pot, 2400 behind, you want to leave yourself with enough chips if he looks you up... maybe 600-700 here.
| fasin8ing wrote: | PG 33..
Delayed C bets - Is this smart only if you have overs or a draw? Is there any other examples on when it would be good to use this? If anyone has an example please use it .. Iam thinking you hit the flop and had something like TPGK and you check it then bet the turn when something lower hit or a non scary card... Am I right? |
I think it's just a way to gauge your opponent's strength before making a c-bet. If you're OOP, you give him a chance to bet the flop if he got a piece and get out of the hand cheaply. If he doesn't you can probably lead a blank turn safely, even if it misses you. If you're in position, you can check behind the flop to avoid a potential c/r , get out of the hand cheaply if he leads the turn, and c-bet if he doesn't. I think you can make this move with any holding, but if you have missed overs or a draw it makes more sense to check behind on the flop so you don't risk getting c/r'ed off your hand. |
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