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Posted: Fri, 17 Mar 2006, 1:04pm Post subject: Comments: char's thoughts on the true value of AK
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 2818
WPP: 116
Location: GO BUCKS!
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{Discuss: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/forum/poker-31191.htm }
Well said. I lay down AK every time when I see someone reraise the initial raiser. You have to think before you act with every hand that you play. Some people see AK and all of their chips are in no matter what. Nice post chard! |
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Posted: Fri, 17 Mar 2006, 1:31pm Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 114
WPP: 354
Location: Delaware USA
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I agree 100%.
But I love it in others' hands when people do the standard "Well no one is raising on that weak flop so I am going to bet" bet. Cause after flop when I have 2nd pair (and whole flop is weak) i often limp to bring out this kinda bet. |
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Posted: Fri, 17 Mar 2006, 3:54pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 797
WPP: 161
Location: Grindin'
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| Thanks man, you post helped me take down 1st in a SnG yesterday. Versus one raiser I used to play my AK weak. I reraised him and took down a nice pot preflop which gave me enough chips to start bullying some people around. Thanks! |
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Posted: Fri, 17 Mar 2006, 4:00pm Post subject:
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i rarely, if ever, get pms
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 4190
WPP: 181
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| Posts like that make my day. Ty - and congrats. |
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Posted: Fri, 17 Mar 2006, 6:51pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1120
WPP: 128
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well said.... great post...
sticky here or in beginners circle? ;P |
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Posted: Fri, 17 Mar 2006, 7:41pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 820
WPP: 209
Location: Dayton, Oh
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Posted: Sat, 18 Mar 2006, 1:28am Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 30 Dec 2005
Posts: 208
WPP: 45
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wow, great post.
Great point about how many people will see AK and insta-all in |
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Posted: Sat, 18 Mar 2006, 2:51am Post subject: Re: char's thoughts on the true value of AK
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 3344
WPP: 154
Location: Ellicott City, MD
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| chardrian wrote: |
4) You raise and get reraised. Again, unless you can actually put your opp on AA or KK, the general answer here is just to push (general because a call may be in order if you are super deepstacked and are pretty confidnt your opp has a pp QQ-, but it is worth the 1/3 shot to hit a flop). This because you now have the odds to push with all the dead money in the pot.
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I agree with most of the post...this one item is a bit iffy to me though.
What hands is someone reraising you with? Typically, there are six or fewer hands: AA, KK, AK, QQ, JJ, and TT. In a vast majority of situations when you're past the first hour and playing against a stack large enough to make it questionable, you can rule out JJ and TT in that situation, but for arguments sake, let's leave them in. You're flipping to three of those hands, splitting with one, 30% to win against KK, and < 20% to win against AA. I think it's usually far more likely that a reraise means AA-QQ than JJ/TT, so at the very least, we have to weight the argument in that direction. Against that range, your hand fairs very poorly. So what other hands are you adding in to the range to make a push a good play? |
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Posted: Sat, 18 Mar 2006, 3:12am Post subject:
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i rarely, if ever, get pms
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 4190
WPP: 181
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Fair nuff - a lot of pushing against a reraise depends on your two respective stack sizes.
I'm just saying in that situation you are often getting 2 to 1 odds to push. And AK almost always gives you 2 to 1.
But if your range really is as tight as QQ-AA/AK then of course you know I agree that a fold is in order. |
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Posted: Sat, 18 Mar 2006, 5:17am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 3344
WPP: 154
Location: Ellicott City, MD
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| chardrian wrote: | Fair nuff - a lot of pushing against a reraise depends on your two respective stack sizes.
I'm just saying in that situation you are often getting 2 to 1 odds to push. And AK almost always gives you 2 to 1.
But if your range really is as tight as QQ-AA/AK then of course you know I agree that a fold is in order. |
I agree that stack sizes impact a lot. But neglecting stack sizes as a reason to call (since you said in the post that you were ignoring all those factors), what makes pushing against the reraise your play here? Folding Equity is one good argument, (i.e. that JJ might fold to your push), but what range do you grant to make AK a +EV push here if you're getting called (as in my experience is usually the case when playing back to a reraise)? |
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Posted: Sat, 18 Mar 2006, 2:13pm Post subject:
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i rarely, if ever, get pms
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 4190
WPP: 181
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| I don't have poker stove available right now to give you an exact answer. But it seems to me that with a raise and a reraise in front of you, AK is gonna be +EV against TT+/AK. The reason is I think you are facing TT-QQ here way way more often than you are AA/KK (you just remember those more). With that dead money in the pot, pushing is almost always gonna be +EV. |
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Posted: Sat, 18 Mar 2006, 2:24pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 3344
WPP: 154
Location: Ellicott City, MD
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| chardrian wrote: | | The reason is I think you are facing TT-QQ here way way more often than you are AA/KK |
That's where we disagree. I think it's much more likely that you're facing AA/KK than JJ/TT.
As far as pokerstove goes...
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 40.3923 % 27.16% 13.23% { AcKd }
Hand 2: 59.6077 % 46.38% 13.23% { TT+, AKs, AKo }
If you don't have a lot invested, I'm staying out of the bad end of a 40/60 personally. If you disagree, the numbers are similar against QQ+:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 38.8244 % 18.14% 20.68% { AKo }
Hand 2: 61.1756 % 40.50% 20.68% { QQ+, AKs, AKo } |
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Posted: Sat, 18 Mar 2006, 4:14pm Post subject:
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i rarely, if ever, get pms
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 4190
WPP: 181
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| I think we are getting down to the really nitty gritty here, which is fine. Basically, the point we are talking about now comes down to reads. If you think AA/KK is more likely than any other pair - you fold. |
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Posted: Sat, 18 Mar 2006, 4:58pm Post subject:
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I will tell you ahead of time this post is based on to many generalizations. Since poker is situational, you’re failure to mention exact stack sizes and blinds made this post difficult for me to finish reading.
| Quote: | | 3) If there is one raiser in front of you - online the answer is to ALWAYS re-raise. The reason is because you simply cannot put someone on AA or KK online – |
You’re failure to mention stack sizes and blinds makes this point hard for me to argue.. Surely, if your opponents range is A10+ 55+ then a re-raise OOP is acceptable. Yet, you’re game will be to coin flip dependant by following this general rule. Remember MTT’s are not won by winning countless coin flips.
| Quote: | | and you might get a fold out of a hand as good as JJ by re-raising. |
Uh… What site do you play on? Personally, I can not think of many players that are willing to fold Tens or Jacks without a read online.
| Quote: | unless you have such a huge stack that you can take the hit or you are so small that you need to risk your tourney life on the chance to triple up.
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Whether or not I have a huge stack or small stack is irrelevant in my decision process. If I think I am most likely ahead I am going to call, if not I will fold.
| Quote: | | Ok so that's it. In sum, AK is undeniably a great hand. But treating it like AA or KK will hurt you in the long run. |
From what you have written, (“ALWAYS re-raise a raise preflop”), you are treating AKo exactly like AA and KK. |
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Posted: Sat, 18 Mar 2006, 7:17pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1120
WPP: 128
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| supermoneyz1 wrote: | | I will tell you ahead of time this post is based on to many generalizations. Since poker is situational, you’re failure to mention exact stack sizes and blinds made this post difficult for me to finish reading. |
Poker is situational, but there are still many many general ideas and theory that apply to a great deal of poker, and AK is one of thoes things for sure.
| supermoneyz1 wrote: | | Quote: | | 3) If there is one raiser in front of you - online the answer is to ALWAYS re-raise. The reason is because you simply cannot put someone on AA or KK online – |
You’re failure to mention stack sizes and blinds makes this point hard for me to argue.. Surely, if your opponents range is A10+ 55+ then a re-raise OOP is acceptable. Yet, you’re game will be to coin flip dependant by following this general rule. Remember MTT’s are not won by winning countless coin flips. |
Your not after coinflips, your after folds. your probally right at 50/50 on the coinflip hands that you will win, but you end up way ahead because of people folding. Thats why this move is so powerful and useful.
| supermoneyz1 wrote: | | Quote: | | and you might get a fold out of a hand as good as JJ by re-raising. |
Uh… What site do you play on? Personally, I can not think of many players that are willing to fold Tens or Jacks without a read online.
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Not sure where your playing, but that sure isnt my experence... sure some dont fold with basically anything (and you should know who the total fish are) but thoes are the same people that will call you with AJ, AQ, and KQ... People like to say that online players dont fold, but thats just not anywhere near an accurate generalization... I know my pushes are called a lot more often with AA/KK than QQ/JJ (and I should be seeing alot more QQ/JJ than AA/KK because i'm holding an ace and king)
| supermoneyz1 wrote: | | Quote: | unless you have such a huge stack that you can take the hit or you are so small that you need to risk your tourney life on the chance to triple up.
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Whether or not I have a huge stack or small stack is irrelevant in my decision process. If I think I am most likely ahead I am going to call, if not I will fold. |
hmm, there should be a lot more involved in that decision. I'll fold what i think is the better half of a 60/40 in a heartbeat if chipstacks tell me to... (aka, i'm second in chips and butting heads with the chipleader...)
| supermoneyz1 wrote: | | Quote: | | Ok so that's it. In sum, AK is undeniably a great hand. But treating it like AA or KK will hurt you in the long run. |
From what you have written, (“ALWAYS re-raise a raise preflop”), you are treating AKo exactly like AA and KK. |
No he isnt... I dont see him talking about CALLING with AK .. I think you totally missed the point of the post...
AK's value is mostly in it's fold equidy |
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Posted: Sat, 18 Mar 2006, 7:23pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 3344
WPP: 154
Location: Ellicott City, MD
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| Laeelin wrote: |
AK's value is mostly in it's fold equidy |
Quite true. Way to sum it up. |
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Posted: Sat, 18 Mar 2006, 9:06pm Post subject:
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i rarely, if ever, get pms
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 4190
WPP: 181
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I'll let Laelin speak for me here - I concur.
I appreciate all the comments tho. Really this post was meant for more of the beginners. I take other factors into consideration; reads, stack size, blinds relative to stacks, position, etc. This was a really general post trying to detail why AK is valuable (tons of fold equity) but also trying to explain to those who are overvaluing it that folding AK is the correct option many times preflop. One of those times would also include when you raise and get reraised depending on your read; chip stacks, blind levels, etc. |
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Posted: Sat, 18 Mar 2006, 10:52pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | Poker is situational, but there are still many many general ideas and theory that apply to a great deal of poker, and AK is one of thoes things for sure. |
Wow thanks for the great evidence. Unfortunately, AK is not something that is not situational like you are suggesting. Failure to account for position, stack size, blinds, etc. and trying to summarize how to play a hand with simple guidelines is just flat out wrong.
Here is a link regarding AK.
http://www.checkraised.com/site/articles/article_show.php?a=41
(notice the structure of the guide, is a bunch of hand history's SINCE AK is NOT A GENERAL IDEA)
"Notice the attention to stack sizes and position. You cannot summarize how to play with AK early in a sit and go in just one or two sentences. However I see a lot of players trying to do so on Poker Strategy messageboards. There are just too many factors that have to be given attention, and sometimes a small detail will change the way you should play the hand. "
^^^ From the link/guide.
| Quote: | | hmm, there should be a lot more involved in that decision. I'll fold what i think is the better half of a 60/40 in a heartbeat if chipstacks tell me to... (aka, i'm second in chips and butting heads with the chipleader...) |
Did you read to exactly what I was responding to?..Obviously theres more involved into the decision process. My point was that just because I have a big stack or small stack, I will not let that affect my involvement in whether or not I will play the hand WHEN RESPONDING TO A RAISE AND RERAISE.
| Quote: | | 3) If there is one raiser in front of you - online the answer is to ALWAYS reraise. The reason is because you simply cannot put someone on AA or KK online - and you might get a fold out of a hand as good as JJ by reraising. |
My main problem is with this part of the guide. Advice like this is poision. So many factors you're ignoring in this broad generilzation. Give me a break Laeelin/Chard. have you guys never just flat out called a raise with AK???
| Quote: |
I think you totally missed the point of the post... |
Shhh |
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Posted: Sat, 18 Mar 2006, 11:32pm Post subject:
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i rarely, if ever, get pms
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 4190
WPP: 181
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You didn't read my replies.
I am agreeing with you.
There's no need to make this into a flamewar when I am agreeing with you. Yes we have both flat called AK.
The advice was meant as quick advice for beginners. Never meant for the post to be a "how to" guide.
Thanks for your correct criticisms tho. |
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Posted: Sun, 19 Mar 2006, 12:04am Post subject:
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Chard the long response was directed towards Laeelin who wrote
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I think you totally missed the point of the post... |
If you do not want to fix some of your statements that I suggested and clean this up a bit then so be it. |
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Posted: Sun, 19 Mar 2006, 3:05am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 1120
WPP: 128
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| Quote: | | Failure to account for position, stack size, blinds, etc. and trying to summarize how to play a hand with simple guidelines is just flat out wrong. |
He didnt just give simple guidelines... That would be useless... he explained why/how AK is so powerfull, and why/how it's weak. There are probally about 500 words in the post before talking about how to play it... I dont see how "You cannot summarize how to play with AK early in a sit and go in just one or two sentences" even comes close to relateing...
| Quote: | | My point was that just because I have a big stack or small stack, I will not let that affect my involvement in whether or not I will play the hand WHEN RESPONDING TO A RAISE AND RERAISE. |
What you actually said was:
| Quote: | | Whether or not I have a huge stack or small stack is irrelevant in my decision process. |
When in a MTT/SnG stack size is critical in almost every decision... Even if you someone know that your against 72o, your AK it's still not always right to call/push... Stack size is always VERY important...
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Anyway...
I dont know about you (but I suspect your like me in this) but I could probally write 500 pages on AK and how to play it... heh, I could probally write that much about almost every 2 I normally play, and another 1000 about why/when i'm willing to play junk hands...
But I think that was a VERY good basic AK guide.
Everything in poker can be answered with "it depends" even the question: "Do I ever fold AA preflop?" is really an "it depends"
It sounds like your just directly reading the guidelines without reading the critical information above them... If you take the guide out of contex and just follow that, sure, it's not going to be near as helpful... but if you read what is said, then you will know the WHY of each guideline, and that will enable you to understand when to NOT follow the guide |
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Posted: Sun, 19 Mar 2006, 10:41am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 2818
WPP: 116
Location: GO BUCKS!
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| It seems like new members here lately are quick to bash and hate. I think that if you have constructive criticism you need to site the good and then explain why there maybe some bad points. When you use phrases like "your failure to mention" or "made it hard to continue reading" or words that are spiteful and degrading are not needed. I have no problem with people finding errors or problems with other's suggestions and guides. Just do your flaming in a more tasteful manner. A good example is JefferyGB's comments. |
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Posted: Sun, 19 Mar 2006, 12:29pm Post subject:
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i rarely, if ever, get pms
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 4190
WPP: 181
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I actually just edited my post. Funny thing is, I edited it based on JGB's suggestions.
After re-reading what super said, I stand by my #3 - which is to always re-raise AK preflop against one raise in front of you. I have never, ever, been able to put my opp on AA or KK based just on one preflop raise. And I don't think I ever will be that "good." Because of AK's fold equity, raising in this situation is +EV. |
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Posted: Sun, 19 Mar 2006, 4:22pm Post subject:
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This guide is awesome and I printed it out for all my friends to read. I only strongly disagree with one thing.
| Quote: | | 3) If there is one raiser in front of you - online the answer is to ALWAYS reraise. The reason is because you simply cannot put someone on AA or KK online - and you might get a fold out of a hand as good as JJ by reraising. |
Why constantly flip for your stack when you can see a flop and then make a decision. There will be numerous times, you're going to be flipping with QQ-88. Yet, then again times where you will have him dominated. Then a few unlucky times you will run into AA or KK. et
The word ALWAYS, entails that you've never just flat called a raise preflop with AK.
| Quote: | | It sounds like your just directly reading the guidelines without reading the critical information above them... If you take the guide out of contex and just follow that, sure, it's not going to be near as helpful... but if you read what is said, then you will know the WHY of each guideline, and that will enable you to understand when to NOT follow the guide |
Chard, stated that this guide is for begginers. If you grabbed some AK hands out of your PT database and then explained the steps of how to play them with all factors accounted for, this post would be awesome. None the less, great post. |
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Posted: Sun, 19 Mar 2006, 6:24pm Post subject:
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i rarely, if ever, get pms
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 4190
WPP: 181
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The reason you ALWAYS raise preflop is because generally your opp's range with just one preflop raise will include hands like AQ and AJs, etc. You are dominating these hands.
The PROBLEM with flatcalling one raise preflop is that you are in essence hoping for that A or K on the flop which only happens 1 in 3 times.
I realize there are times where you can call, make a continuation bet on a blank flop and still take it down. But for beginners who generally like to call too much anyways. Learning how to become overly aggressive PREFLOP with AK with just one raiser is usually gonna help not hurt. |
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Posted: Sun, 19 Mar 2006, 6:31pm Post subject:
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