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QQ when an A flops

  
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lonnie
Post Posted: Wed, 20 Oct 2004, 2:26pm    Post subject: QQ when an A flops Reply with quote
Full House
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Joined: 25 Aug 2004
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CARDSON

Do most of you consider this a standard fold, or do you call the raise on the turn? I was betting to test for the A, thought I found it so I laid it down. My read - he has Ax and hit two pair on the turn.

Game #168170764: Texas Hold'em Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/10/20 - 15:20:53 (EST)
Table "Platinum" Seat 8 is the button.
Seat 1: tropics ($64 in chips)
Seat 2: Pierr1311 ($21.75 in chips)
Seat 3: lhoney2 ($88.50 in chips)
Seat 4: fat_gus ($31.75 in chips)
Seat 5: Oerjan ($35 in chips)
Seat 6: kinderock ($22 in chips)
Seat 7: Healey001 ($48.25 in chips)
Seat 8: Poker_pug ($48 in chips)
Seat 10: Negin3005 ($3 in chips)
Negin3005: posts small blind $0.50
tropics: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to lhoney2 [Qh Qd]
Pierr1311: calls $1
lhoney2: raises $2
fat_gus: folds
Oerjan: folds
kinderock: folds
Healey001: folds
Poker_pug: folds
Negin3005: folds
tropics: folds
Pierr1311: calls $1
----- FLOP ----- [Ah 6d 8d]
Pierr1311: checks
lhoney2: bets $1
Pierr1311: calls $1
----- TURN ----- [Ah 6d 8d][4s]
Pierr1311: checks
lhoney2: bets $2
lazyrich joins the table at seat #9
Pierr1311: raises $4
lhoney2: folds
Returned uncalled bets $2 to Pierr1311
Pierr1311: doesn't show hand
Pierr1311 collected $11 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $11.50 Main pot $11 | Rake $0.50
Board [Ah 6d 8d 4s]
Seat 1: tropics (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Pierr1311 collected $11
Seat 3: lhoney2 folded on the Turn
Seat 4: fat_gus folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Oerjan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: kinderock folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Healey001 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Poker_pug (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: Negin3005 (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
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Fnord
Post Posted: Wed, 20 Oct 2004, 2:52pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Well played.

The other possible line is to check behind on the turn and call the inevitable river bet. Both lines have merits. Switching between the two against players you play against often has merit too.

Don't be so quick to put him on a particular hand. He could play a wide range of hands like this and most of them beat you. It's a small pot and without a read it's not worth looking him up.


Last edited by Fnord on Wed, 20 Oct 2004, 2:55pm; edited 1 time in total
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mike4066
Post Posted: Wed, 20 Oct 2004, 2:54pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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I think your fine to fold here.
You've shown strength preflop, on the flop and on the turn. By betting the flop your Representing the Ace. His raise says I have your Aces beat.

A raise on the turn says to me 2 pair or better.

I would have played it the exact same way.


BTW... Glad to see you bet the flop Smile




*edit* Damn fnord beat me to it
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Fnord
Post Posted: Wed, 20 Oct 2004, 2:57pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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mike4066 wrote:

BTW... Glad to see you bet the flop Smile


...and raised pre-flop with just Queens Wink

At this rate, in another 2 months he'll be stealing with A3s 2-off the button. Laughing


Last edited by Fnord on Wed, 20 Oct 2004, 3:11pm; edited 1 time in total
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mike4066
Post Posted: Wed, 20 Oct 2004, 3:09pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Fnord wrote:

...and raised pre-flop with just Queens Wink

At this rate, in another 2 months she'll be stealing with A3s 2-off the button. Laughing


Well "She" is actually a HE..

A3s 2 off the button.. He's getting there. He'll become a limit monster yet..
( A3s 2 off? I don't pull that one. But I'm still in limits too low to have this one work)

Damn fnord, you bored at work or something?
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lonnie
Post Posted: Wed, 20 Oct 2004, 3:23pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Yeh...

lhoney2 is my login at school, which was assigned to me. I have since used it as my login just about everywhere - forums, poker rooms, etc. Turns out to be a pretty bad name, but I have used it so many places now I can't stop. Not always a disadvantage for people to think I am female when playing poker though.

Quote:
raised pre-flop with just Queens


I usually just about always raise with them now, especially in tight games. I've found you can take down a lot of pots at InterPoker with a PFR. Once I took 4 blinds preflop when raising AJs. Not used to that after playing .50/1.00 at Party and PokerStars.

Quote:
BTW... Glad to see you bet the flop


I usually do when I PFR now...I am adding new things to my game, trying things out from FTR. I just have to add them in slowly so I can play with confidence. My PFR percentage is still at 3.5%, but I am bringing my aggression post flop way up. Check raising top pair, etc.

Sorry about the gender mix up. If you feel dirty now, go take a shower. Laughing
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lonnie
Post Posted: Wed, 20 Oct 2004, 3:33pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Fnord - did you think I was female based on my screen name or the way I play certain hands? Laughing
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Fnord
Post Posted: Wed, 20 Oct 2004, 3:36pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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lhoney2 wrote:
Fnord - did you think I was female based on my screen name or the way I play certain hands? Laughing


Screen name mostly...
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mike4066
Post Posted: Wed, 20 Oct 2004, 3:37pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Fnords already covered raising standards in the post he stickied..

But don't think your alone in the low PFR category. I'm tight with my PFR's, I'm only running 4.25%.

If anyone playing against me is paying attention i'm screwed Smile I'm a very straight forward ABC low limit player.
10k hands of .5/1 and 1/2 and I only have 18 check raises Very Happy

If you run BisonBison's auto ratings against me I'm a rock, TP-P.

Once I have the hang of this limit thing I'll open up.
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Eric
Post Posted: Wed, 20 Oct 2004, 11:43pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Yea, it is hard to play KK or QQ when an Ace flops. Whenever it happens to me in the brick and mortar casinos I try to stay calm and cool on the outside while my insides are twisting and turning.
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elipsesjeff
Post Posted: Thu, 21 Oct 2004, 12:45am    Post subject: Reply with quote
i wouldn't mind a change...
i wouldn't mind a change...

Joined: 13 Jul 2004
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Quote:
If anyone playing against me is paying attention i'm screwed I'm a very straight forward ABC low limit player.


You almost have to be playing low-limit don't you? I would like to see a successful sneaky low-LHE player. I hardly ever check raise too. Usually because I bet/raise preflop and flop down to the river that everyone just calls down to the river. All the monster flops I get usually come when no one is playing or i'm in late position and I have no chance to check-raise. If I dont bet no one will.

My favorite are those that check-raise on the Flop and not the Turn. I feel special inside knowing I didn't have to waste that extra dollar. 8-)
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lonnie
Post Posted: Thu, 21 Oct 2004, 11:08am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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CARDSON

Two more QQ hands: I lose 7.00 on the first and win 10.50 on the 2nd for a net of +3.50

These are really interesting because they came back to back. I have caught QQ 5 times out of 252 hands at InterPoker. So far I am losing 12.50 with QQ at InterPoker. Crying or Very sad

Would anyone have played these differently?

Hand #1 - I get my opponent head up, which I wanted. I wanted to make him show me the K, which he did.

Game #170206374: Texas Hold'em Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/10/21 - 11:34:57 (EST)
Table "Mobile" Seat 3 is the button.
Seat 1: Chapelle9 ($37.75 in chips)
Seat 2: Keskikang sits out
Seat 3: Buster ($107.50 in chips)
Seat 4: heihei ($37.50 in chips)
Seat 5: Zealot ($30 in chips)
Seat 6: haylee ($40 in chips)
Seat 7: berberis ($49.25 in chips)
Seat 8: Arcayalca ($50.50 in chips)
Seat 9: lhoney2 ($98.50 in chips)
Seat 10: Kimjor sits out
heihei: posts small blind $0.50
Zealot: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to lhoney2 [Qc Qh]
haylee: calls $1
berberis: folds
Arcayalca: folds
lhoney2: raises $2
gazkat joins the table at seat #2
Chapelle9: folds
Buster: folds
Kimjor sits back
heihei: folds
Zealot: folds
haylee: calls $1
----- FLOP ----- [4c Kc 3c]
haylee: checks
lhoney2: bets $1
haylee: calls $1
----- TURN ----- [4c Kc 3c][Js]
haylee: checks
lhoney2: bets $2
haylee: calls $2
----- RIVER ----- [4c Kc 3c Js][Td]
haylee: checks
lhoney2: bets $2
haylee: calls $2
----- SHOW DOWN -----
lhoney2: shows [Qc Qh] (A Pair of Queens, King high)
haylee: shows [Qs Kh] (A Pair of Kings, Queen high)
haylee collected $14.75 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $15.50 Main pot $14.75 | Rake $0.75
Board [4c Kc 3c Js Td]
Seat 1: Chapelle9 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Buster (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: heihei (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Zealot (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: haylee showed [Qs Kh] and won ($14.75) with A Pair of Kings, Queen high
Seat 7: berberis folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Arcayalca folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: lhoney2 lost



============

Hand 2: Much better board for my QQ. No overcards fall, no flush possible, and not much of a straight possibility.

Game #170207704: Texas Hold'em Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/10/21 - 11:36:16 (EST)
Table "Mobile" Seat 4 is the button.
Seat 1: Chapelle9 ($37.75 in chips)
Seat 2: gazkat ($30 in chips)
Seat 3: Buster ($107.50 in chips)
Seat 4: heihei ($37 in chips)
Seat 5: Zealot ($29 in chips)
Seat 6: haylee ($47.75 in chips)
Seat 7: berberis ($49.25 in chips)
Seat 8: Arcayalca ($50.50 in chips)
Seat 9: lhoney2 ($91.50 in chips)
Seat 10: Kimjor ($17.25 in chips)
Zealot: posts small blind $0.50
haylee: posts big blind $1
gazkat: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to lhoney2 [Qd Qh]
berberis: folds
Arcayalca: folds
lhoney2: raises $2
Kimjor: raises $3
Chapelle9: folds
berberis leaves the table
gazkat: folds
Buster: folds
heihei: folds
Zealot: folds
haylee: folds
lhoney2: calls $1
----- FLOP ----- [Ts 5s 9c]
lhoney2: bets $1
Kimjor: raises $2
lhoney2: calls $1
----- TURN ----- [Ts 5s 9c][3d]
lhoney2: checks
Kimjor: bets $2
lhoney2: calls $2
----- RIVER ----- [Ts 5s 9c 3d][6d]
B-ice joins the table at seat #7
lhoney2: checks
Kimjor: bets $2
lhoney2: calls $2
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Kimjor: shows [Td Ad] (A Pair of Tens, Ace high)
lhoney2: shows [Qd Qh] (A Pair of Queens, Ten high)
lhoney2 collected $19.50 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $20.50 Main pot $19.50 | Rake $1
Board [Ts 5s 9c 3d 6d]
Seat 1: Chapelle9 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: gazkat (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Buster folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: heihei (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Zealot (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: haylee (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Arcayalca folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: lhoney2 showed [Qd Qh] and won ($19.50) with A Pair of Queens, Ten high
Seat 10: Kimjor lost
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Fnord
Post Posted: Thu, 21 Oct 2004, 11:20am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Seriously consider moving to Party. The 2/4 tables are softer than this...

Hand 1:
Good thing he sucks and didn't take any more of your money.

Hand 2:
3-bet the flop and lead the turn. You have an over-pair, don't roll over so fast, particularly out of postion. If he checks behind on the river it's a major coup for him.
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lonnie
Post Posted: Thu, 21 Oct 2004, 11:29am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Fnord - you're right about hand #2 of course. Lately I have seen a lot of 3 bet pre-flops where my opp is holding AA KK. Those are the kind of hands I 3 bet with, and I give a little too much respect sometimes to 3 bet and capped preflops. I definitely played hand 2 scared. Turned out there was no monster in the closet after all. Missed an opportunity to make a few more dollars. WTF was that guy thinking 3 betting with ATs anyway? I gotta stop giving these guys so much credit.
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lonnie
Post Posted: Thu, 21 Oct 2004, 11:33am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Just noticed this.

Quote:
Seriously consider moving to Party. The 2/4 tables are softer than this...


I'm still at Party also. Haven't moved past the .50/1.00 games there yet, although I am considering giving the 1/2 games a shot soon. Still have some weaknesses to work out in my game before I move up.

I am playing at InterPoker right now strictly to clear the 90 dollar Bonus. Another 200 hands or so and I'll be done with InterPoker til next month.

Also:

Quote:
Hand 2:
3-bet the flop and lead the turn.


The flop was 3 bet, that's what slowed me down.


Last edited by lonnie on Thu, 21 Oct 2004, 11:35am; edited 1 time in total
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Fnord
Post Posted: Thu, 21 Oct 2004, 11:34am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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lhoney2 wrote:
Fnord - you're right about hand #2 of course. Lately I have seen a lot of 3 bet pre-flops where my opp is holding AA KK. Those are the kind of hands I 3 bet with, and I give a little too much respect sometimes to 3 bet and capped preflops. I definitely played hand 2 scared. Turned out there was no monster in the closet after all. Missed an opportunity to make a few more dollars. WTF was that guy thinking 3 betting with ATs anyway? I gotta stop giving these guys so much credit.


That's why I like to feel 'em out on the flop. If it's capped and you're behind then you only lose 0.9BB more than the line you took.

Another option in those spots is to let them lead the turn, but bet into them on the river so they can't check behind. AA/KK often won't raise the river without a set fearing that you caught something. Worse hands will call, if only to see what you have.
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lonnie
Post Posted: Thu, 21 Oct 2004, 11:54am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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CARDSON

QQ again..this time I play a little stronger and get paid off. LUCKY turn card and I dodge the straight draw , but you gotta get lucky sometimes. I net $22 on this 31 dollar pot. I probably should have check raised the turn.

Game #170368134: Texas Hold'em Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/10/21 - 12:48:33 (EST)
Table "Mobile" Seat 6 is the button.
Seat 1: atoad12 ($38 in chips)
Seat 2: chongcn ($76.25 in chips)
Seat 3: snaffler ($22.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Dr_Gonzo ($45 in chips)
Seat 5: Roesen ($5.75 in chips)
Seat 6: Denbee ($99.25 in chips)
Seat 7: B-ice ($111.25 in chips)
Seat 8: Arcayalca ($26 in chips)
Seat 9: lhoney2 ($98.25 in chips)
Seat 10: FRISKY ($44.50 in chips)
B-ice: posts small blind $0.50
Arcayalca: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to lhoney2 [Qc Qd]
lhoney2: raises $2
FRISKY: calls $2
atoad12: folds
chongcn: raises $3
snaffler: calls $3
Roesen: folds
Denbee: calls $3
B-ice: folds
Arcayalca: folds
lhoney2: calls $1
FRISKY: calls $1
----- FLOP ----- [7d Kh Td]
lhoney2: bets $1
FRISKY: folds
chongcn: raises $2
snaffler: calls $2
Denbee: folds
lhoney2: calls $1
----- TURN ----- [7d Kh Td][Qh]
lhoney2: bets $2
chongcn: calls $2
snaffler: calls $2
----- RIVER ----- [7d Kh Td Qh][9s]
lhoney2: bets $2
chongcn: folds
snaffler: calls $2
----- SHOW DOWN -----
lhoney2: shows [Qc Qd] (Three of a kind, Queens, King high)
snaffler: mucks hand
lhoney2 collected $31 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $32.50 Main pot $31 | Rake $1.50
Board [7d Kh Td Qh 9s]
Seat 1: atoad12 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: chongcn folded on the River
Seat 3: snaffler mucked
Seat 5: Roesen folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Denbee (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: B-ice (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Arcayalca (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: lhoney2 showed [Qc Qd] and won ($31) with Three of a kind, Queens, King high
Seat 10: FRISKY folded on the Flop
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mike4066
Post Posted: Thu, 21 Oct 2004, 11:55am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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lhoney2 wrote:

Two more QQ hands: I lose 7.00 on the first and win 10.50 on the 2nd for a net of +3.50

Your 1st hand I would have checked/called the river.

Reason would be that at this point I'm probably beat and I don't want to pay more than 1 bet to see the showdown. If he is on a draw he won't pay off your bet, but if you check to him there is a possibility he will bluff and you can win then.

It's a 1 bet decision if you make it or he does. But don't let him make it a 2 bet decison. VERY RARELY in 1/2 will you run into someone capable of raising the river as a bluff.

2nd hand
Go ahead and 3bet with TPGK or the over pair. Find out now how much he likes his hand . If he's willing to cap, lead into him on the turn. If he's stil lwilling to raise you on the turn your over pair is probably no good.

When you called the raise on the flop you gave him control of the hand. Checking into him on the turn at that point you were oging to get NO other information other than that he was going to bet it out.
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Fnord
Post Posted: Thu, 21 Oct 2004, 12:59pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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lhoney2 wrote:

QQ again..this time I play a little stronger and get paid off. LUCKY turn card and I dodge the straight draw , but you gotta get lucky sometimes. I net $22 on this 31 dollar pot. I probably should have check raised the turn.


Yup
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lonnie
Post Posted: Thu, 21 Oct 2004, 2:38pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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CARDSON

Different table, QQ again. Can you believe I actually 3 bet this preflop? FTR advice in action. I'm getting there, Fnord. Last QQ hand I'll post unless I get a really nice one.

Game #170796104: Texas Hold'em Limit ($1/$2) - 2004/10/21 - 15:31:56 (EST)
Table "Amethysts" Seat 7 is the button.
Seat 1: lhoney2 ($79 in chips)
Seat 2: Ejvind ($54 in chips)
Seat 3: Paco ($113.50 in chips)
Seat 4: twopump ($46.50 in chips)
Seat 5: speirsnl ($48.25 in chips)
Seat 6: HeartOn4u ($52.75 in chips)
Seat 7: FranPoker ($12.50 in chips)
Seat 8: Murph ($52.75 in chips)
Seat 9: VeraLynna ($26.25 in chips)
Seat 10: villem ($56 in chips)
Murph: posts small blind $0.50
VeraLynna: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to lhoney2 [Qd Qs]
villem: raises $2
lhoney2: raises $3
Ejvind: calls $3
Paco: folds
twopump: folds
speirsnl: folds
HeartOn4u: folds
FranPoker: folds
Murph: folds
VeraLynna: folds
villem: calls $1
----- FLOP ----- [Jh 7c 5c]
villem: checks
lhoney2: bets $1
Ejvind: calls $1
villem: calls $1
----- TURN ----- [Jh 7c 5c][6d]
villem: checks
lhoney2: bets $2
Ejvind: folds
villem: calls $2
----- RIVER ----- [Jh 7c 5c 6d][5s]
villem: checks
lhoney2: bets $2
villem: calls $2
----- SHOW DOWN -----
lhoney2: shows [Qd Qs] (Two Pairs, Queens and Fives, Jack high)
villem: mucks hand
lhoney2 collected $20.50 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $21.50 Main pot $20.50 | Rake $1
Board [Jh 7c 5c 6d 5s]
Seat 1: lhoney2 showed [Qd Qs] and won ($20.50) with Two Pairs, Queens and Fives, Jack high
Seat 2: Ejvind folded on the Turn
Seat 3: Paco folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: twopump folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: speirsnl folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: HeartOn4u folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: FranPoker (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Murph (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: VeraLynna (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: villem mucked
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mike4066
Post Posted: Thu, 21 Oct 2004, 3:08pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Well look at that, I think he's got it Smile

By 3 betting the flop, your isolating yourself with the preflop raiser Smile GJ
OK so 1 other guy cold called 3 bets, he's out gunned, let him tag along.

Think its time for the next discussion?

How about AQ, or something a little easier such as AK.
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lonnie
Post Posted: Thu, 21 Oct 2004, 3:37pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Quote:
Think its time for the next discussion?


I was just thinking the same thing. QQ is a good hand for discussion though, as I think it is often misplayed. Easy to lose too much or win too little holding QQ.

AQ would probably be a good one. Would like to see some discussion about when to raise/limp with it, in which position. I'll start a new thread.
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mike4066
Post Posted: Thu, 21 Oct 2004, 4:03pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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lhoney2 wrote:
Quote:
Think its time for the next discussion?


I was just thinking the same thing. QQ is a good hand for discussion though, as I think it is often misplayed. Easy to lose too much or win too little holding QQ.

AQ would probably be a good one. Would like to see some discussion about when to raise/limp with it, in which position. I'll start a new thread.


Sounds like a plan. I think we've covered QQ well enough for 2 days.
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QQ when an A flops

  

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