I just realized I'm not that good

OK, so i've been playing poker for not that long but i like to think i'm pretty decent.

But i just made a realization in the last couple of days that I whatever i like to think i am... i'm not that good.

I'm basically a just a textbook multitabling TaGG who can identify the odd opportunity to pull some LaGG moves (position isolate and take down, steal the odd orphan pot, continuation bet raise-bluff, river bluffs etc.) manages to fold to a set/2pair/flush a little more frequently than my opponents, calls raises with a tighter range, and a bit more emotionally stable.

If I was to break down my hands into 2 categories:
AA/KK
99-22 (sets)
Everything else (blinds, AK/AQ/AJ/KQ/QQ/JJ + raises in position with whatever if i think i have an opportunity)
I'd realize that I'm basically breaking even / covering my blinds/rake on everything else (all those fancy-shmancy plays, aggression, bluffs) and earn money with my big pairs and sets. So if I have a session / run of them where I can't get many of those big pairs (and to hold up) or sets, I would probably break even (unless variance came into play)... then I get a session where the sets hit or a get a run of AA/KK and book a $500 win or so and then start it again.

So what i'm getting is at that even at 200NL, I'm not winning 'cos I'm so damn good. I win because I do simple things correctly over and over again, with the occasional dash of brilliance and the ability to fold a second best more frequently than others. I hardly ever make a read. As i mentioned i don't often bluff. I don't really have the ability to sense weakness. I still do call down in the wrong spot and give up on pots i should try for. In other words, I'm winning 'cos I'm not that bad.

Anyone feel that this is the case for them?

How do you improve? try to widen up our game? Is it worth it to take a dip in profit-making and play 1 table to try to 'play better'? or learn to play 6-max. Or is it better to just keep being less bad (better discipline, emotional stability, fold trash, fold those second best hands more frequently... etc.)?

Um... sounds like all winning players. Congratulations.

TADA.... you now understand the force young Skywalker.

Whatever your game, whatever your style, whatever your stakes, winning is about repetitive execution of your plan.

The short answer to your question is, no. IMHO. Now, what was the question? Getting technically better is overrated. I don't understand those people who say stuff like, "I play on Ultimate Bet because they have the best players and I want to get better so I play the best." I want to win money so I play the worst. If I could find a group of 2nd graders with $200 bankrolls I would play them.

The reason I say you now "get it", however, is that there's no such thing as that shangri-la, guru, see-all "greatness" at poker that most players aspire to have. There is only execution of a proven winning plan. If that plan is "sit down with 2nd graders and push AA once a night" then there it is. Most people never get good because they never get discipline and they never get "a plan" and stick with it. That's a fact.

Now that you have you think "I'm not that good". But in reality that's what makes you good.

Nice going! You'll be a better player now that you've realized that you're not a poker genius.

Sincerely Aok(pokergenius)rongly.......................

Sal - I lvoe these self revelation posts, helps me calm myself down.

Aok - You talk like pro.

I agree ... great thread.

I'm only starting out ... but the few times I have lost big in a single session (relative to the stakes of course) have been the times I either didnt have a plan or abandoned my plan.

Last night I did the dumbest thing ... played solid on an aggressive table for an hour, was up 80BB, then lost it all on the last two hands I played becuase I decided the opposition was so loose I pushed AJ to a re-raise, then played K9s trying to win it back. Abandoned plan = loss. Stick to plan = finish night up 80BB.

I'm going to book mark this thread and read it every time I abandon the plan ... hopefully I won't be back often Smile

I'm worse. I find really horrible players and exploit the crap out of them before someone else does.

There is a whole universe of small edges that can be exploited for better profits. It's ok to Tagg until the cows come home. It's profitable. There is an upper plain of skill to achieve however. I'm obsesssed with poker, and the holy grail of what it means to be the best at it. I hope to someday achieve a high status. I'm one of those stupid people that cares more about improving than making money, because I love the game. I believe it is possible to find new sharp edges. I find them constantly. It takes a little courage to walk on them, but they're there. For example....

I was sitting at a $200NL cash table with Wildbob the other day, and found such an edge. I looked down at 56s on the button, and raised it 3xBB. The big blind reraised me, making it 6-8xBB to go. I knew this meant high pocket from this person. My hand was merely speculative, and I was reraised, but this is cash table, and I can play postflop regardless of my cards with position. I called to see a flop. The flop came out TAA with 2 clubs. Awww crap right? Wrong. The big blind represented as I expected, but only bet out about half pot. This person had JJ-KK. I was certain.

The problem here is, I now have to convince the opponent I have trip aces or fold. 200 NL players are smart enough to not believe trips when they have a powerful underpair. Do I have a reason to raise trip aces on this flop if I had them? Yes I do. There are two clubs out there, and the opponent bet half pot, which might make him think that I think he's drawing. I know he likely isn't. The opponent is also very tight, so less inclined to look me down with two aces staring at them OOP. The choice was made. It was proper to make it 3x his bet to go. He thought about it and folded of course, considering I had position on him for the next two betting rounds, and I won 20+ BB. I found a sharp edge and exploited it. It was correct to do so against this player. Would you have done the same thing?

Now I'm not saying look for things that aren't there. All I'm saying is don't be a pussy when opportunity falls in your lap. Poker is pragmatic. Always remember that.

Rondavu, do you normally multitable? If so, how do you get a lot of your reads?

Just curious.
Smile

I am so glad someone wrote this....I am a winning player but I do exactly like most...play a system and stick to it...venturing beyond the boundaries only when something is glaring. I lose money badly when I lose my focus and wander....just for the sake of wandering. My fam thinks I am a poker guru or something, and help them win online when I am around...but I just play tight for the most part. I guess when I thought of a good poker player...I just never imagined this. I think the hardest part is consistency.

Thats what us high stakes fish do too, i mean if i look at my play now i'm really just a calling station that wont fold middle pair. "tagg" poker (which is a silly thing to call it cause you shouldn't ever limit yourself to one style cause every situation is diferent) is all about getting your money in ahead, and folding while behind, and the great players just do both of those things more often than simply decent players. Moves, bluffing, and "lagg" poker are overated too.

Some FTR high stakes fish (it might've been ilikeaces86) does not play lagg in ring. Yet he makes a killing.

Rondavu, good point. there's certainly more than one way to scale a fish. However, in the end you're doing what all good players do, have a system and execute it. The real (or actual) difference between a good player on a $25 or $200 NL table (or a $20 MTT) and a good player at the highest levels of poker is that difference in how complex and experienced the system is. A simple TAGG (or even nut hunting) system works at some levels. But for that kind of game you're working on and aspiring toward, you need a very complex, textured, "aware" game. Keep at it. It's a worthy goal for sure.

The reality of why other players stop on one plateau or another before they reach that highly textured and "aware" game is Laziness. It takes so much work and anguish and dedication and strain to move up in skill that most players say screw it. And there are, IMHO, 3 levels of poker players: fish, Winners, and Elites. I hope you become an Elite. It sounds like you're putting the work into it.

good luck

Most of the money you win poker comes from your opponents bad plays, not your great plays.

Love the post salsa...I consider that I fall into precisely the same category that you described - though I play lower limits...essentially nut camping, exploiting occassional edges, winning big or losing little (most of the time) with AA/KK and sets...and not generally fighting over piddly pots with mediocre holdings.

What fascinates me is watching the big guns at Pacific (on occasion) when they come down to the $10 tables...guys raising Q2o from EP, then potting the flop and turn with bottom pair and just being smooth-called - what's that? They hit trip deuces on the river - overbet the pot - top two pair AJ is still calling them and they lucked out!
I just don't comprehend the play, and damned if I don't call them the luckiest fish/LAG I've seen. Maybe I'm just watching them on a good day - raising every 4-5th hand or so no matter position, betting no matter the board until the end when they either have something to take advantage of, or don't - and generally taking proper advantage of scare cards etc.

Watching these guys makes me feel like I have no balls for the game long-term...I'm happy making my reasonable BR building earnings at my game...but I certainly would like to be able to really rake it in like these guys do when they get lucky, which sure as hell seems like a lot!

I don't exactly know how to get there either...would love to be able to expand on the opportunistic pot stealing with reads, an example of which Rondavu provided. Just gotta suck it up, get some nads, and pay attention I think Smile

That, and I still have lots of learning to do in this game - which is of course a lot of the fun and challenge for me at this point!

Best of luck!

come on
you dont need to play fancy poker because too many players make mistakes anyway.
Surely mking the winrate slightly higher is tha abiltiy to always get a weaker hand to call, no matter whether thats 500bucks or 50cents. If you get that extra bet/2bets whatever youre making the most of your hands.

I think if you play TAGG all the time, you should take some time to play LAGG or even counterplay. I have played both and by doing so, I can find better ways to exploit both styles because I know what type of play made me think "oh shoot, am I beat?". I still suck, but I have gotten better by doing so. When playing TAGG, I hate raising w/ AQ and then having my cbet on a missed flop reraised or called then reraised on the turn. So, when I see the tight guy doing this, I reraise him when I know he is weak. When playing LAGG, I play more drawing hands and hate when people crush my odds with pot sized bets over and over. So, I make LAGGS pay dearly to draw against me. I don't just take away their odds, I destroy them. Might not be the best examples, but you see where I'm going.

TAGG and LAGG are terms that are too vague. What you want to be is hard to read. I think you guys that claim to be TAGG, are probably somewhere in between TAGG and LAGG but just know how to get out of bad situations and exploit good ones. You have developed reading people and boards and patterns consciously and subconsciously. You just don't realize all the skills you have obtained over time. Experience is key to becoming a winnning player.

Edit: This post wanders a little with no

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I just realized I'm not that good