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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 2:51pm Post subject: Pre-flop quiz: Common situation in the BB
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17649
WPP: 83
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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Party 2/4 or 3/6 game. Mixed bag of players, table is overall LooPy with some weird aggression.
You're in the big blind. 4 players limp, SB completes.
What hands are you raising and why?
Bonus: What hands are close? |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:14pm Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 165
WPP: 145
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i'd say my strong drawing hands, big suited connectors and such. Because i'd be getting more money into the pot to give me good odds to go after my draws without much risk in being chased out of the pot by an overly aggressive player.
I still have alot to learn in poker so i'm assuming i'm waaaay off base here. |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:19pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17649
WPP: 83
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| melinda27 wrote: | i'd say my strong drawing hands, big suited connectors and such. Because i'd be getting more money into the pot to give me good odds to go after my draws without much risk in being chased out of the pot by an overly aggressive player.
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You're in the right ballpark. Certainly doing better than the weak/tight playbook that says you only raise AA/KK here. |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:25pm Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 165
WPP: 145
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I wouldnt raise AA or KK here, because with 5 people in the pot and the odds of trimming down the field with a raise preflop are slim so basically i'm stuck playing them for set or backdoor flush/straight value and postflop reduced to check calling down or possibly even folding if the board gets too coordinated.
Is this the wrong thinking as well? |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:28pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Posts: 1405
WPP: 94
Location: Carlsbad, CA
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based on your description of the table, your raise from the BB:
- probably wouldn't reduce the field, and,
- there's a chance you could get reraised
that said, you're basically raising to build the pot/for value, and to make your opponents make a mistake by calling your raise
AA, KK, QQ - JJ/TT not sure about
AK - AT suited
KQ - KJ suited
AK, AQ off
QJ, JT suited, not sure about - probably not |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:35pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17649
WPP: 83
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| melinda27 wrote: | I wouldnt raise AA or KK here, because with 5 people in the pot and the odds of trimming down the field with a raise preflop are slim so basically i'm stuck playing them for set or backdoor flush/straight value and postflop reduced to check calling down or possibly even folding if the board gets too coordinated.
Is this the wrong thinking as well? |
Really weak/tight wrong. I think you catch a set around 20% of the time with all 5 cards. AA/KK win around ~50% here. With AA/KK, the bigger the field is the more +EV, but your variance also goes up. Hence, we can make the argument for limping them from EP if the game texure is such that your raise will scare off the fishies, but you will get a raise behind quite often. |
Last edited by Fnord on Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:40pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:37pm Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 165
WPP: 145
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:38pm Post subject: Re: Pre-flop quiz: Common situation in the BB
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Full House
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1277
WPP: 105
Location: Drowning in prosperity
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| Fnord wrote: | Party 2/4 or 3/6 game. Mixed bag of players, table is overall LooPy with some weird aggression.
You're in the big blind. 4 players limp, SB completes.
What hands are you raising and why?
Bonus: What hands are close? |
With the weird aggression you have some nice implied odds, and you have enough players along for the ride to build a pot for your opponents to draw.
I'd raise any suited A, pocket pairs 9 (8?) and higher, any suited paints.
Definitely wouldn't raise offsuited broadway cards. |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:39pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 313
WPP: 124
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I dont know why the reference to "Party" but Loopy is Loose/Passive? They are mostly calling stations? I would:
- limp my draws preflop (suited connectors, 1-gappers, 2-gappers)
- Big pairs: Doesnt have as much value into multi-way pots and against loose/passive players. If its a 5-way flop I would only raise the bigger pairs, in hopes to knock a few out on the flop. e.g. QQ, KK, AA, AK (maybe JJ). Since they are passive, dont have to worry about bluffs and raises... Since theyre loose, if they make it passed the flop, any TPTK isnt worth as much in a muti-way going to the river. However, starting-out with JJ+ against loopy players should justify a raise and maybe the postflop play would be passive enough where you might have an edge on the river.
- Big Suited connectors: AKs. I believe the suited connectors are strong only when you catch your draw against this table, so I dont think i would raise with them since I am only going to flop a draw 1 out-of 9 times.. Also the more opps in the better with these hands... |
Last edited by Krapp on Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:43pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:42pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17649
WPP: 83
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| Krapp wrote: | I dont know why the reference to "Party" but Loopy is Loose/Passive? They are mostly calling stations? I would:
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I'm giving a reference game.
The typical player here plays a few too many hands, calls too much and misapplies aggression in odd spots.
This isn't the 15/30 semi-pro + rich fishies game. Nor is it the micro-limit play any 2 and take it to the river (raise with the near nuts) game. |
Last edited by Fnord on Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:47pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:45pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17649
WPP: 83
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| Krapp wrote: |
- Big Suited connectors: AKs. I believe the suited connectors are strong only when you catch your draw against this table, so I dont think i would raise with them since I am only going to flop a draw 1 out-of 9 times.. |
My suited connector play kinda sucks. Just curious what your odds are of flopping one or more of the following:
2 pair
trips
straight draw
flush draw |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:54pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 313
WPP: 124
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| Fnord wrote: |
My suited connector play kinda sucks. Just curious what your odds are of flopping one or more of the following:
2 pair
trips
straight draw
flush draw |
2-pair -> 2%
trips -> 1.35%
straight draw -> dont know but I am gonna say its a little easier than flopping a flush draw (13%?)
flush draw -> 11% |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:57pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17649
WPP: 83
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| Krapp wrote: |
2-pair -> 2%
trips -> 1.35%
straight draw -> dont know but I am gonna say its a little easier than flopping a flush draw (13%?)
flush draw -> 11% |
That gets you in the ballpark of playing 1 in 5 flops, making the case for a raise here.
opps... I ran the numbers once, here is what I got
3.5% two pair/trips/boat
7.2% strait draw
11% four flush
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22%
I guess you can throw in the times you can peel one for a gutshot in a raised pot and make the case for raising... |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 4:24pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 313
WPP: 124
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| Fnord wrote: |
2-pair -> 2%
trips -> 1.35%
straight draw -> 7%
flush draw -> 11%
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22%
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Hm the straight draw gets me confused. Its worth less than a flush and its harder to make a straight draw on the flop and on the turn/river vs flush. I guess straight draws are more frequent with any 2-random cards than flushes... I guess the odds look ok to raise, but maybe I would prefer 1-more opp in since I am out-of-position. |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 4:27pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17649
WPP: 83
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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I'm not really scientific about this, so am probably off in some spots. I might even be too tight...
Big pairs, raise for value as you will win often without a set:
AA/KK/QQ/JJ
TT is close
Med/Small pairs:
99-22
You need a set or OSD for value. However, there is a school of thought that raising these will force otherwise somewhat tight players to call you down with more marginal holdings. With 5 other players is really close, and I'll just check to see a flop.
Big suited cards:
AK/AQ/AJ/AT
KQ
Monsters in a multi-pot, raise for value. With both high card value and a flush draw you will win more than your fair share.
Middle suited cards:
KJ/KT
QJ/QT
JT
Probably still a raise. JTs certainly is.
Suited Aces:
A9 and down
As your kicker gets lower you lose value, as it goes from close to about break even. The size of the field drives how low I'd go for my X.
Suited Connectors:
QJs - 54s
QJs, JTs and T9s still have some high card power and rarely make a sucker end hence are clear raises. As we go down the list it becomes closer.
Big Offsuit cards:
These guys are the pay-off hands in multi-pots. AK is still clearly a raise. AQ/AJ/KQ are close. Some players will raise and lead the flop. Others will check and look to check/raise the field if they hit. Raising anything else is throwing money away.
Suited semi-connectors:
Maybe some of them if the field was bigger, I'm inclinded to just say no.
Unsuited Connectors:
Nope
Junk:
Nope |
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