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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 12:28pm Post subject: new to limit
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Flush
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 530
WPP: 64
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couple of cards regarding relatinoship between
position and preflop raises
should I be rasing with 99,TT in EP ? and proceed to cap it?
with hands like KJo/AQo , do I still raise if 3+ people have limped in SB? |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 12:42pm Post subject: Re: new to limit
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Flush
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 313
WPP: 124
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| AllinLife wrote: |
should I be rasing with 99,TT in EP ? and proceed to cap it?
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In EP these are limping hands. I wouldnt think of capping unless I had QQ, KK, or AA
| AllinLife wrote: |
with hands like KJo/AQo , do I still raise if 3+ people have limped in SB? |
Better to limp these hands in LP. If your feeling laggy, maybe you raise. I would avoid raising with KJ though. Keep in mind, a raise will rarely make anyone who already limped fold. So youll be playing a marginal hand in a 4+ way pot. |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 12:49pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 530
WPP: 64
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thanks for feedback kraps.
how did I do here?
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed)
Preflop: Hero is SB with T , 9 .
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.
Flop: (7 SB) 9 , 6, 2 (7 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.
Turn: (5.50 BB) 7 (5 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.
River: (9.50 BB) K (5 players)
Hero bets, MP1 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls.
Final Pot: 12.50 BB
was I too conservative? |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 12:56pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17649
WPP: 83
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| Looks goot to me. I might check the flop, raise a single bet, fold to a bet + raise. |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 12:59pm Post subject: Re: new to limit
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17649
WPP: 83
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| Krapp wrote: | | AllinLife wrote: |
should I be rasing with 99,TT in EP ? and proceed to cap it?
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In EP these are limping hands. I wouldnt think of capping unless I had QQ, KK, or AA
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Raise TT any position. Cap an unknown with AA/KK/QQ/AK. I cap with a lot broader of a range in specific situations (steals, against LAG, etc.)
| Krapp wrote: |
| AllinLife wrote: |
with hands like KJo/AQo , do I still raise if 3+ people have limped in SB? |
Better to limp these hands in LP. If your feeling laggy, maybe you raise. I would avoid raising with KJ though. Keep in mind, a raise will rarely make anyone who already limped fold. So youll be playing a marginal hand in a 4+ way pot. |
Yeeeeeehaaawww! AQ is a no brainer raise, any position. KJo is close, no shame in limping there. I might raise to buy the button. KJs is an easy value raise with lots of limpers. Marginal positions in raised pots will put hair on your chest. |
Last edited by Fnord on Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:29pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 1:08pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 313
WPP: 124
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| AllinLife wrote: | thanks for feedback kraps.
how did I do here?
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed)
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A bit to aggressive for me. I would tend to check/raise the flop (if one-better). If the flopped check through, I would bet the turn, fold to a raise. Probably bet the river... |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 1:09pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 530
WPP: 64
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I would assume I fold those group 3~4 to 3 bet?, how about 2?
and raise them when people limped to you?
sorry for massive loads of questions..just that I'm new :p
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed)
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J, K.
UTG calls, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.
Flop: (9 SB) T, K, K (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB folds, UTG folds.
Turn: (5.50 BB) Q (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.
River: (9.50 BB) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 11.50 BB |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 1:18pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 313
WPP: 124
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Hm, I forget what these groups are, so maybe someone else can answer... Comments on the play:
- KJs: Its not a raising hand in EP, limp it..
- Flop: Ok
- Turn: 3-bet. What are you worried about? Nothing too scary that requires to be passive.
- River: Why check? If your opp had the 10 set or Q set, your just out-of-luck. AJ would be unlikely.... |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 1:27pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 530
WPP: 64
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| so you just put him on lower kicker trips? |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 2:39pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 313
WPP: 124
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| AllinLife wrote: | | so you just put him on lower kicker trips? |
My main thought would be: Does opp have a hand that can beat me? The only hands I am considering seriously are the 10 and Q set. If the opp was holding a king (I wouldnt assume since I have 1 and there is one left), my kicker is probably better. In either case I am paying off. Beyond that I dont know what else opp would be holding, I would just know I have the better hand to bet. Of course a KQ, K/10, and AJ could also beat me, but again its HtoH and Im not worrying about it
Flopping a rainbow set is perfect. You have every hand beat on the flop except for 10/10 (ok and the KQ, AK too). The only thing that might slow be down would be 2-running aces or Q and J |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 2:47pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17649
WPP: 83
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| Krapp wrote: |
KJs: Its not a raising hand in EP, limp it..
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Bzzzz wrong answer. The correct answer is people suck, hence it's a rasing hand. However, limping is a good play too. It's close enough either way.
Here is why it's a +EV raise. Good players muck AJ/KQ to your raise (good thing.) Bad players call with worse (better thing.) If you get 3-bet by a good player, you at have a flush draw to fall back on and have a very good idea of where you're at. I like playing raised pot with the idiots at the table, but maybe that's just me.
Oh, and 3-bet the turn. |
Last edited by Fnord on Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:25pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:01pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 313
WPP: 124
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| Fnord wrote: |
Bzzzz wrong answer. The correct answer is people suck, hence it's a rasing hand. However, limping isn't a bad play either. It's close enough either way.
Here is why it's a +EV raise. Good players muck AJ/KQ to your raise (good thing.) Bad players call with worse (better thing.) If you get 3-bet by a good player, you at have a flush draw to fall back on and have a very good idea of where you're at. I like playing raised pot with the idiots at the table, but maybe that's just me.
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I guess its an interesting discussion to "play badly" b/c there are bad players at the table. To me I guess it would have to depend on what style do they have (assuming they are bad players). Since I 3-board alot, I dont have the luxury to play the player as much as I would like to. |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:11pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17649
WPP: 83
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| Krapp wrote: |
I guess its an interesting discussion to "play badly" b/c there are bad players at the table. To me I guess it would have to depend on what style do they have (assuming they are bad players). Since I 3-board alot, I dont have the luxury to play the player as much as I would like to. |
What hands are you 3-betting? You really should be folding most of your hands to a raise from a non-LAG. Maybe the loose cold-calls and 3-bets are what is driving up your VP$IP? They certainly are costing you money, particuarly when you move up in limits.
KJs is a good hand. Raising it can't be playing that badly. Certainly, not compared to our competition at just about any limit. |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Oct 2004, 3:24pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1277
WPP: 105
Location: Drowning in prosperity
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| Krapp wrote: | | I guess its an interesting discussion to "play badly" b/c there are bad players at the table. To me I guess it would have to depend on what style do they have (assuming they are bad players). Since I 3-board alot, I dont have the luxury to play the player as much as I would like to. |
It depends on the range of starting hands your opponents will play. If there is a player to your right showing down hands like Jxs and a player to your left who would fold AJo to a raise because he fears being dominated, it is clear that raising KJs is the correct play.
At low limit Party tables, KJs is a far better starting hand than the average hand that your opponents are playing. That's a general rule at that site. Using PokerTracker with VP$IP and PFR percentages will help you zero in on what your specific opponents are playing. These numbers converge fairly quickly (I start to trust them after only 50 hands or so.) I three table as well but call up a PT game-time window behind each table that I'm playing.
In the tougher games that Sklansky writes about in HEFAP, the situation is a little different, and KJs loses a bit of value. |
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