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Posted: Sun, 12 Feb 2006, 4:06pm Post subject: No suckout w/ KK
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 1524
WPP: 109
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I played this the "Gabe" way and it resulted in me putting my money in when ahead rather than sucking out. If I played it my old way the end result is the same, but I feel better about this approach.
Players:
lekplats (EUR 85,93 in seat 1)
SHIRIM (EUR 41,10 in seat 2)
skinny58 (EUR 137,75 in seat 3)
qtspark (EUR 178,25 in seat 4)
McScooter (EUR 129,70 in seat 5)
Dealer: qtspark
Small Blind: McScooter (0,50)
Big Blind: lekplats (1,00)
McScooter was dealt: Ks - Kh
SHIRIM Call (1,00)
skinny58 Fold
qtspark Raise (3,75)
McScooter Raise (6,00)
lekplats Fold
SHIRIM Call (5,50)
qtspark Fold
Flop Ad - 9c - 2d
McScooter Check
SHIRIM Bet (9,00)
McScooter Call (9,00)
Turn Ad - 9c - 2d - Kc
McScooter Check
SHIRIM All-In (25,60)
McScooter Call (25,60)
River Ad - 9c - 2d - Kc - 3h
McScooter shows: Ks - Kh (three of a kind, kings)
SHIRIM shows: Ac - Kd (two pairs, aces and kings)
McScooter wins: EUR 84,95 (with three of a kind, kings) |
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Posted: Mon, 13 Feb 2006, 12:58pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 949
WPP: 56
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| I noticed this in your other topic... you're reraising weak preflop with KK and checking the flop... what do you hope to happen here? |
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Posted: Mon, 13 Feb 2006, 1:46pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 1524
WPP: 109
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| Well, I still want a caller but only one. Reraising a lesser amount usually gets that accomplished - only PP or AK (possibly AQ) calls. I checked the flop because there was an ace - this is the Gabe way. My other post was just played way wrong but this one I think is good. |
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Posted: Mon, 13 Feb 2006, 1:51pm Post subject: Re: No suckout w/ KK
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Flush
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 469
WPP: 172
Location: U, S and A!!!
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| r8ed wrote: | | I played this the "Gabe" way and it resulted in me putting my money in when ahead rather than sucking out. If I played it my old way the end result is the same, but I feel better about this approach. |
i always like to hear exactly this, that someone gets their money in while ahead. happy days. glad to see some other FTR members applying the KK vs. flopped ace stuff.
however, i have to agree w/ outphase: raise those cowboys up harder preflop. let me put it this way: a lot of players have a 'standard raise' size that they use each and every time they enter a pot for a raise. a common one is to use the 'bet pot' option, but whatever it is, it's usually around the 3BB-4BB range. this means if they're feeling frisky they will raise w/ their 72o OR they might have a monster PP. you really have to raise more than minimum here because you want to accomplish one of the following:
1. win the pot right there by getting them to fold when they raise w/ rags. worse things have happened in the history of time.
2. get them to call with a worse hand for unjustified odds. this is a long term winning edge, and if you collect enough of these over time, you beat the game and all your base are belong to us. minraising isn't often going to get them to be unjustified in calling. i love getting to call a min raise w/ something like 87s because i know you're interested in your hand and you're letting me catch up for cheap so that when my flop does come i can take that interest and beat you over the head with it. but if you raise it $12-15 instead, their odds don't remain nearly as good for the loose call. make them overpay in order to hit their hand.
3. get them to reraise: here, you find that they're VERY interested in their hand, it's probably not just some rags (unless they think you've been doing this too often), and that you're up for a significantly more difficult post flop hand than normal. the reraise should help you narrow their range of possible hand ranges, but not necessarily, as we all know.
** of course there is another option in this case, for him to be holding AA and to call the larger PFR when you have KK. but, looked at from another way, KK has the advantage here because only one other hand is ahead of it is AA, so you really have to just play your odds and raise hard. most of the time, hands like QQ JJ AK will call that large raise, and you're still ahead on most flops since you were way ahead PF. when your KK gets called by AA, just post it to the bad beats forum and move on with life.
in any event, i think this hand was of the 'r1gg3d' variety and i'm not sure there was going to be a way for him to get away from top two on the turn w/o giving you his stack. oddly enough, had you raised PF harder, he MAY have been able to put you on KK when the turn came for your set and then slow down. however, we're interested in long term results, not in hand to hand variance. just because that might have been the result here doesn't mean it's not something you should do as normal course of action. |
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Posted: Mon, 13 Feb 2006, 2:24pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 1524
WPP: 109
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| Some people like to just call here to trap. Is that bad too? I would think that is actually worse. |
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Posted: Mon, 13 Feb 2006, 2:42pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 469
WPP: 172
Location: U, S and A!!!
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| r8ed wrote: | | Well, I still want a caller but only one. |
You need to further qualify this:
Yes you still want a caller, but only one who is already behind you ( most likely w/ KK) and who is willing to pay more than he should, according to statistical probability, to try to catch up.
You don't want a caller just to get one, that leaves yourself exposed to getting less EV than you should. You want to escalate your value throughout the course of the hand while you're ahead, and you want to minimize your investment while behind. Since you're almost certain to be ahead here, don't let him catch up without making it -EV for him to do so, and that will inversely make it +EV for you.
As far as trapping w/ KK PF goes, yes it is worse. Not always, of course, but here yes. I will be the first to suggest that there is a time and place for anything in NLHE. It is just that dynamic of a game. But at lower stakes, you don't need to worry about trapping nearly as often PF. I just don't think it's the place for it. Your opponents aren't good enough for trapping to have a higher expected return than playing the hand outright straightforwardly, as odd as that may sound. |
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Posted: Mon, 13 Feb 2006, 3:49pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 1524
WPP: 109
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| alias2211 wrote: | | r8ed wrote: | | Well, I still want a caller but only one. |
You need to further qualify this:
Yes you still want a caller, but only one who is already behind you ( most likely w/ KK) and who is willing to pay more than he should, according to statistical probability, to try to catch up.
You don't want a caller just to get one, that leaves yourself exposed to getting less EV than you should. You want to escalate your value throughout the course of the hand while you're ahead, and you want to minimize your investment while behind. Since you're almost certain to be ahead here, don't let him catch up without making it -EV for him to do so, and that will inversely make it +EV for you.
As far as trapping w/ KK PF goes, yes it is worse. Not always, of course, but here yes. I will be the first to suggest that there is a time and place for anything in NLHE. It is just that dynamic of a game. But at lower stakes, you don't need to worry about trapping nearly as often PF. I just don't think it's the place for it. Your opponents aren't good enough for trapping to have a higher expected return than playing the hand outright straightforwardly, as odd as that may sound. |
I'm hoping for a hand like AK/AQ to call. They have very little chance to catch up except if they spike an Ace. But they have a chance of hitting something to make them believe they are ahead. I used to reraise these hands bigger and watch them fold most of the time. They know just to fold - even the fishy ones. Are you saying to reraise enough to take away lower PP's odds? That makes sense, but they are still dominated and only have 2 outs. I don't reraise this low all the time. It just happens that I posted two close to eachother. I guess I'll stop mixing in min-raises if everyone thinks it's a bad play.
I see your point about trapping at this level. |
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Posted: Mon, 13 Feb 2006, 4:01pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 2911
WPP: 107
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I think that the amount you rr pre-flop is one of the ways KK != AA. With AA - you dominate everything, and realistically, you don't even mind 2 callers. With KK... you are only like 2:1 favorite over AX.
In all cases, you still want EVERY hand to call you - as long as they are getting worse than 2:1 pot odds (or 3:1 if you hold AA).
That being said - you don't really want someone to pick up that when you min-re-raise you have AA and 3x re-raise you have KK... so it might be better to just raise them both . In this case, to about $8. I think $9-10 is folding alot of hands.
Another wierd thing... the less you re-raise, the smaller you bet on the flop, for two reasons. 1, you are facing a wider range of calling hands, and you now need info before you stick all your stack in on the 789 flop. 2) the pot is smaller |
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Posted: Mon, 13 Feb 2006, 6:14pm Post subject: Re: No suckout w/ KK
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 108
WPP: 458
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| r8ed wrote: | | I played this the "Gabe" way and it resulted in me putting my money in when ahead rather than sucking out. |
Are you refering to this thread? If yes, isn't there some sort of difference between checking behind with second pair on a rainbow flop in position and check-calling a 3/4 pot bet on a two-suited flop out of position?
As for not sucking out: you had two outs (I guess you couldn't know villain held one of them), so for calling $9 to be break-even you'd have to win more than $180 (compared to folding) every time you hit the turn. In the event the maximum possible was about $50. Sounds like a suck-out to me. |
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Posted: Mon, 13 Feb 2006, 6:39pm Post subject:
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HABITUAL LINE-STEPPER
Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 5251
WPP: 73
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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I am having horrible luck with KK lately.
Since I got PokerTracker about 7000 hands ago, I have had KK 23 times. I only win 1.5bb per hand with in on average and I have won 70% of the time with it.
I know I am playing it right, I have just had bad luck. Its a shame too since everyone says that KK is usually responsible for a significant percentage of his total profit. |
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Posted: Mon, 13 Feb 2006, 6:40pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17649
WPP: 83
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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| Renton wrote: | | I know I am playing it right. |
I'm skeptical. |
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Posted: Mon, 13 Feb 2006, 6:56pm Post subject:
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HABITUAL LINE-STEPPER
Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 5251
WPP: 73
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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| Fnord wrote: | | Renton wrote: | | I know I am playing it right. |
I'm skeptical. |
I don't know if you are being abrasive with that comment or not, but either way I don't take offense, and would have no problem with posting all of the HH's for you.
If I am playing it wrong, then please, help me stop doing so. |
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Posted: Mon, 13 Feb 2006, 7:01pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 469
WPP: 172
Location: U, S and A!!!
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| yes post them and we'll help you. that is how this place works. start with a few and if we need more than like 5-6 HHs well definitely let you know. |
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Posted: Tue, 14 Feb 2006, 1:34am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 1090
WPP: 125
Location: Bangkok
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| Renton wrote: | I am having horrible luck with KK lately.
Since I got PokerTracker about 7000 hands ago, I have had KK 23 times. I only win 1.5bb per hand with in on average and I have won 70% of the time with it.
I know I am playing it right, I have just had bad luck. Its a shame too since everyone says that KK is usually responsible for a significant percentage of his total profit. |
I have only about 5k hands in PT, have had AA 24 times and it's my biggest loser. I have misplayed one or two hands. Bet hard especially OOP a)win small pot when they dont catch b) lose big one when they catch.
Lets make a deal, you post your 3 biggest losers with KK, I post my 3 biggest AA losing hands  deal? |
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Posted: Tue, 14 Feb 2006, 10:19am Post subject:
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HABITUAL LINE-STEPPER
Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 5251
WPP: 73
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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| Pingviini wrote: | | Renton wrote: | I am having horrible luck with KK lately.
Since I got PokerTracker about 7000 hands ago, I have had KK 23 times. I only win 1.5bb per hand with in on average and I have won 70% of the time with it.
I know I am playing it right, I have just had bad luck. Its a shame too since everyone says that KK is usually responsible for a significant percentage of his total profit. |
I have only about 5k hands in PT, have had AA 24 times and it's my biggest loser. I have misplayed one or two hands. Bet hard especially OOP a)win small pot when they dont catch b) lose big one when they catch.
Lets make a deal, you post your 3 biggest losers with KK, I post my 3 biggest AA losing hands deal? |
ok start up a thread... I will post later on tonight |
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