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Posted: Thu, 29 Dec 2005, 9:22pm Post subject: I'm going to cry.
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3601
WPP: 98
Location: Your place or my place
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I'm in the midst of a 150 bet downswing to end my best month. Am I playing stupid? I culled a few hands...
Hand 1) Missing bets w/ KK
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR Hand History Converter
Preflop: Hero is Button with K , K .
3 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.
Flop: (4.40 SB) J , 8, 4 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.
Turn: (4.20 BB) A (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.
River: (8.20 BB) 6 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.
Final Pot: 8.20 BB
Results in white below:
BB has Tc 8s (one pair, eights).
Hero has Ks Kc (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.20 BB.
Hand 2) Missing bets w/ QQ
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR Hand History Converter
Preflop: Hero is MP with Q, Q.
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, 4 folds, UTG calls.
Flop: (7.40 SB) Q , 2, 3 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls.
Turn: (4.70 BB) 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero calls.
River: (8.70 BB) 3 (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG folds.
Final Pot: 11.70 BB
Results in white below:
Hero has Qs Qh (full house, queens full of threes).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.70 BB.
Hand 3) Flopping top two on a 3flush board
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR Hand History Converter
Preflop: Hero is BB with K, J.
2 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.
Flop: (3 SB) T, J, K (3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, CO calls, SB calls.
Turn: (4.50 BB) 6 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, SB calls.
River: (7.50 BB) Q (3 players)
SB bets, Hero folds, CO calls.
Final Pot: 9.50 BB
Results in white below:
SB has 8c As (straight flush, ace high).
CO has Kd 9s (straight flush, king high).
Outcome: SB wins 9.50 BB.
Hand 4) KJo OOP.
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR Hand History Converter
Preflop: Hero is UTG with J, K.
Hero raises, MP calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.
Flop: (8.40 SB) T, 5, K (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP raises, Button folds, BB folds, Hero calls.
Turn: (6.20 BB) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.
River: (6.20 BB) T (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 8.20 BB
Results in white below:
Hero has Js Kd (two pair, kings and tens).
MP has Qs Ks (two pair, kings and tens).
Outcome: MP wins 8.20 BB.
Hand 5) Blinds w/ top pair, no kicker, paired board, against a 60/4
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR Hand History Converter
Preflop: Hero is BB with J, 4.
2 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero checks.
Flop: (2.40 SB) 7, 7, J (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.
Turn: (2.20 BB) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.
River: (4.20 BB) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 6.20 BB
Results in white below:
Hero has Jc 4s (two pair, jacks and eights).
CO has As 2h (two pair, eights and sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins 6.20 BB.
Hand 6) Bah
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR Hand History Converter
Preflop: Hero is Button with K, K.
UTG calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG calls, Hero caps, SB calls, UTG calls.
Flop: (13 SB) 8, 2, Q (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG calls.
Turn: (8 BB) 2 (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG calls.
River: (11 BB) T (3 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, UTG folds, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 18 BB
Results in white below:
Hero has Kh Ks (two pair, kings and twos).
SB has Tc Td (full house, tens full of twos).
Outcome: SB wins 18 BB.
Hand 7) Bah.
Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR Hand History Converter
Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, K.
1 fold, MP raises, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.
Flop: (6.40 SB) J, T, T (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, CO raises, Hero calls, MP 3-bets, CO calls, Hero calls.
Turn: (7.70 BB) A (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, CO calls, Hero raises, MP 3-bets, CO folds, Hero calls.
River: (14.70 BB) 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 16.70 BB
Results in white below:
Hero has Qc Ks (straight, ace high).
MP has Tc Td (four of a kind, tens).
Outcome: MP wins 16.70 BB. |
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Posted: Thu, 29 Dec 2005, 9:48pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 1602
WPP: 105
Location: Party 6 max
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| Do you really think you misplayed these hands? |
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Posted: Thu, 29 Dec 2005, 9:50pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3601
WPP: 98
Location: Your place or my place
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| Not entirely - but I'm wondering where I can play some of them better. |
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Posted: Thu, 29 Dec 2005, 9:57pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3601
WPP: 98
Location: Your place or my place
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| Some reassurance that I'm just running bad and not doing something stupid would be nice too. |
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Posted: Thu, 29 Dec 2005, 10:57pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 16 Apr 2005
Posts: 949
WPP: 56
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I am neither a 5/10 player nor a 6max player, but from what I understand about both individually here's some quick spot checks
Hand 1: value bet the river if you figure BB was not on a draw nor has the A
Hand 2: sometimes I 3bet the turn knowing I still have 10 outs vs the flush, other times I slowdown to actually hit one of the 10. River is fine and the missed bet is just because the fool didn't call.
Hand 3: good river laydown, can't avoid it because that one card completed every draw possible on that board
Hand 4: looks fine to me assuming KJo is good enough to raise UTG 6max
Hand 5: lead out the whole way if unraised. in many cases i've seen, open limpers in LP tend to have weak Aces or suited Kings.
Hand 6: bah indeed, he sucked out on you, leans toward the running bad notion
Hand 7: I think you're fine on this one given pot odds. Mad respect to MP for fast playing quads |
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Posted: Thu, 29 Dec 2005, 10:58pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 1968
WPP: 96
Location: 6max limit tables
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{moved by PokerFanatic}
{5/10 6 Max} |
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Posted: Thu, 29 Dec 2005, 11:07pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 1968
WPP: 96
Location: 6max limit tables
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Hand1: If you raise the turn here I think you HAVE to bet the river...
Hand2: I might have 3 bet the turn against some opponents that would make that raise with less then the flush... however no read played fine...
Hand3: ha-ha well you played it right nothing you can do...
Hand4: UTG raise with KJo? Ummm K? Does the result answer why i think this is a bad idea? Your hand sucks with two cold callers and the blind in...
Hand 5: I bet down if he doesn't come over the top I might have the best hand against a 60/4
Hand6: played right just a shitty 2 outer nothing you can do...
Hand7: it's questionable to raise out of BB with a KQo however I let it go for sure when I’m the preflop raiser and it gets bet and raised into me, the turn is complete spewage you rep and ace that the guy doesn't understand that play or has you completely drawing dead at this point... K high on the river completes spewing there bro... I fold for two on the flop so that's 1bb, you lost 4 more bb after that so you lost 5bb when you didn't need to IMO... |
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Posted: Thu, 29 Dec 2005, 11:38pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 1602
WPP: 105
Location: Party 6 max
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| pokerfanatic wrote: | | Hand1: If you raise the turn here I think you HAVE to bet the river... |
No. The turn raise/check behind is a staple of limit hold em. If he calls the turn raise, a river bet is often spewing unimproved. Often worse hands will fold, and you are only called when behind. I actually like a call turn, call/bet river here. You are often WA/WB. 3 betting the flop is another good option.
| pokerfanatic wrote: |
Hand2: I might have 3 bet the turn against some opponents that would make that raise with less then the flush... however no read played fine... |
Which opponents are these? aprroximately everyone at 5/10 6max? When you 3 bet, you define your hand and allow them to get away from a weak hand. When they have a flush, you get capped. It is a win 1(maybe) lose 2(often) situation. A 3 bet is spewing even if your opponent usually doesn't have the flush.
| pokerfanatic wrote: |
Hand4: UTG raise with KJo? Ummm K? Does the result answer why i think this is a bad idea? Your hand sucks with two cold callers and the blind in... |
You need to move away from results oriented thinking. KJ is weak, but not weak enough to fold in a shorthanded game. A raise protects your hand and increases your chances of taking down the pot. This hand was well played, but I almost like a donkbet on the turn. MP could have a wide range that you beat like AT, QJ... even something like K9.
Then check/call the river.
| pokerfanatic wrote: |
Hand 5: I bet down if he doesn't come over the top I might have the best hand against a 60/4 |
If he'll bet hands that you beat, you'll get more by check/calling the turn and check-raising the river. Unless he will 3 bet hands that you beat, your goal is to make the most, right? why do we want to try to bet him out of the pot?
| pokerfanatic wrote: |
Hand7: it's questionable to raise out of BB with a KQo however I let it go for sure when I’m the preflop raiser and it gets bet and raised into me, the turn is complete spewage you rep and ace that the guy doesn't understand that play or has you completely drawing dead at this point... K high on the river completes spewing there bro... I fold for two on the flop so that's 1bb, you lost 4 more bb after that so you lost 5bb when you didn't need to IMO... |
He's not repping an ace. He has a broadway straight. It is hard to "spew" with the nut straight, even on a paired board.
If you really fold this flop for 1bb getting almost 5 to 1 you have a serious leak.
If you don't call a raise with KQ in the BB you have another serious leak.
Good Luck. |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Dec 2005, 11:01am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1277
WPP: 105
Location: Drowning in prosperity
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euph, everything looks fine in these hands. Don't sweat it.
If it makes you feel any better, I hit a 150 BB swing over 8 days this month and have spent the latter half of the month climbing out of it. Sh1t happens. |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Dec 2005, 11:19am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 1968
WPP: 96
Location: 6max limit tables
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| Demiparadigm wrote: | pokerfanatic wrote:
Hand1: If you raise the turn here I think you HAVE to bet the river...
No. The turn raise/check behind is a staple of limit hold em. If he calls the turn raise, a river bet is often spewing unimproved. Often worse hands will fold, and you are only called when behind. I actually like a call turn, call/bet river here. You are often WA/WB. 3 betting the flop is another good option. |
What do you think IF YOU RAISE means? maybe i should spell it out... I DON'T think it's the correct play, HOWEVER if you TAKE THAT LINE you probably should fallow though it's like going to hit a home run but right as you make contact you don't fallow though the swing and turn it into a bunt...
| Demiparadigm wrote: | pokerfanatic wrote:
Hand2: I might have 3 bet the turn against some opponents that would make that raise with less then the flush... however no read played fine...
Which opponents are these? approximately everyone at 5/10 6max? When you 3 bet, you define your hand and allow them to get away from a weak hand. When they have a flush, you get capped. It is a win 1(maybe) lose 2(often) situation. A 3 bet is spewing even if your opponent usually doesn't have the flush. |
I would be 3 beating only very poor weak opponents that will CALL DOWN, even when they are 3 bet in this situation, and don't even say that there are no player that wouldn't because that's bull shit, realize I’m not a fucking idiot...
| Demiparadigm wrote: | pokerfanatic wrote:
Hand4: UTG raise with KJo? Ummm K? Does the result answer why i think this is a bad idea? Your hand sucks with two cold callers and the blind in...
You need to move away from results oriented thinking. KJ is weak, but not weak enough to fold in a shorthanded game. A raise protects your hand and increases your chances of taking down the pot. This hand was well played, but I almost like a donkbet on the turn. MP could have a wide range that you beat like AT, QJ... even something like K9.
Then check/call the river. |
You really need to re-read what I write because you obviously are making a point to try and make me look like an ass or some shit... Let me digest what I wrote, UTG raise with KJo? Ummm K (HELLO SACASIUM WARNING) I’ll start putting SW from here no out... then I think that now that I have that out of the way I think EUPH knows exactly what I meant by look at the results and what's calling you, I talk to him every day, do you?
| Demiparadigm wrote: |
PokerFanatic wrote:
Hand 5: I bet down if he doesn't come over the top I might have the best hand against a 60/4
If he'll bet hands that you beat, you'll get more by check/calling the turn and check-raising the river. Unless he will 3 bet hands that you beat, your goal is to make the most, right? why do we want to try to bet him out of the pot?
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Well I would need to see an AF for that now wouldn't I? If you take the insinuative on the flop and are going to call down anyways why wouldn't you bet down and keep control of the hand, the same result is achieved if he raises and has < 1 AF you can safely fold if he has like a 4AF it might be bettor to take the c/c route... it depends as most things do in poker...
| Demiparadigm wrote: | pokerfanatic wrote:
Hand7: it's questionable to raise out of BB with a KQo however I let it go for sure when I’m the preflop raiser and it gets bet and raised into me, the turn is complete spewage you rep and ace that the guy doesn't understand that play or has you completely drawing dead at this point... K high on the river completes spewing there bro... I fold for two on the flop so that's 1bb, you lost 4 more bb after that so you lost 5bb when you didn't need to IMO...
He's not repping an ace. He has a broadway straight. It is hard to "spew" with the nut straight, even on a paired board.
If you really fold this flop for 1bb getting almost 5 to 1 you have a serious leak.
If you don't call a raise with KQ in the BB you have another serious leak.
Good Luck. |
Ok, sorry I miss read the hand maybe the comment about Khigh would give you a clue... so it was a shitty beat… ohh fucking well…
Are you from 2+2? because a lot of your posts have the tone of a player from over there, I understand your points completely, however if you could tone it down some maybe I wouldn't have to defend everything I say, from what I can tell you play more mathematically, I need reads, just difference in play I think doesn't make me right or wrong, or you right or wrong... Good Luck... |
Last edited by pokerfanatic on Fri, 30 Dec 2005, 11:34am; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Fri, 30 Dec 2005, 11:32am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3601
WPP: 98
Location: Your place or my place
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Deep breath, relax, everyone.
I do question my river play on hand 1 - I question my river play a lot. |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Dec 2005, 2:33pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 3580
WPP: 80
Location: emo-kid
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| euphoricism wrote: |
I do question my river play on hand 1 - I question my river play a lot. |
bet the river.
hand 2: standard
hand 3: tough luck
hand 4: i donk the turn, probably fold to a raise.
hand 5: i'm betting the turn. the paired board solves a lot of kicker problems.
hand 6: tough luck. with a better read on SB, you could call this river.
hand 7: tough luck. |
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Posted: Sat, 31 Dec 2005, 10:24pm Post subject:
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i wouldn't mind a change...
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 4653
WPP: 91
Location: TagFish
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I only have opinions on 2 hands, numbers 4 and 5 as I think all other were played optimally.
Number 4, I fold preflop. KJo is a junk hand, no matter how you look at it and you really are just trying to steal the blinds from UTG. If you get a caller, you're behind, if you get raised, you're fucked and likely dominated. I fold Offsuit Junk Broadways in EP, they are break even at best and will save you lots of variance. Hands like QJo, KJo, QTo, KTo and worse are just asking from trouble from EP and even ATo I'm finding is sucking ass more and more I play it. I'm even questioning the profitability of raising it on the button after a field of limpers. Sorry fanatic and demi, I didn't even bother reading your guy's arguments, but who ever said to fold KJo preflop is right.
Hand 5 I think was played way too weak as has already been said. No reason to not lead the turn here. |
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Posted: Sun, 01 Jan 2006, 1:03am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 3580
WPP: 80
Location: emo-kid
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| elipsesjeff wrote: | | ...KJo is a junk hand, no matter how you look at it... |
it's a borderline hand, around breakeven...probably slightly +EV for the best players and slightly -EV for good players...of course it depends on stakes as well (or rather the average level of competition)
whether + or - EV, it's probably a worthy investment (overall) to play this hand, only because it's more likely to create questionable situations, allowing you to analyze your play and better your abilities. |
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Posted: Sun, 01 Jan 2006, 2:08am Post subject:
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i wouldn't mind a change...
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 4653
WPP: 91
Location: TagFish
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| |~|ypermegachi wrote: | | elipsesjeff wrote: | | ...KJo is a junk hand, no matter how you look at it... |
it's a borderline hand, around breakeven...probably slightly +EV for the best players and slightly -EV for good players...of course it depends on stakes as well (or rather the average level of competition)
whether + or - EV, it's probably a worthy investment (overall) to play this hand, only because it's more likely to create questionable situations, allowing you to analyze your play and better your abilities. | Truthfully, I disagree. KJo blows ass. KJs will play similar and is a lot more profitable than KJo.
Some of the worst play I've ever seen against me is with KJo too. I've seen it cold called, 3 bet, capped, all kinds of shit and the only +EV thing to do with it is fold in 75% of all situations. It plays like shit multiway, just as bad OOP, and even worse facing aggression. You're stuck calling down when marginally ahead or way behind and rarely can you extract the most value out of this hand.
The only thing I've learned from playing this hand is to fold it; it will save you lots of trouble. |
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Posted: Sun, 01 Jan 2006, 2:15pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
Posts: 275
WPP: 90
Location: Denmark
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It's little suprise that I don't agree with jeff on this subject as I play a more loose 6max style than he does.
I've analyzed my data from my 3/6 and 5/10 6max hands.
UTG
Hand Times Result
Ato 20 -76,5
Kjo 36 215,5
Kto 23 -11,5
Qjo 31 -211,0
Qto 32 93
Total: 142 9,5$
MP
Hand Times Result
Ato 78 418,5
Kjo 54 131
Kto 52 84,8
Qjo 53 -250,5
Qto 54 221,5
Total 291 605$
The result are somewhat tainted for several reasons. First of all I don't play qj or qt from utg every time so when it says I've been dealt QJo 31 times I might only have played 15-20 hands and folded the rest.
Also my samplesizes are way to small to look at individual hands , which is somewhat obvious as I'm doing better with QTo than I am with QJo on both positions. so the only useful data IMO is the total from all my thrash hands.
I'm breakin even from UTG, but since I'm only a mediocre player I've litlle doubt that these can be played for +EV in the long run. Hopefully I'll be able to do this myself, but I'll definately be looking more into these as I play more hands and have better samplesizes. |
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Posted: Sun, 01 Jan 2006, 8:28pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3601
WPP: 98
Location: Your place or my place
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You know - I gotta question myself here. Sometimes it seems like I'm playing "any two face cards from any position" - maybe this is my problem and why I'm hitting massive swings. I mean, I don't think I fold QJo from EP. I'd have to look (its very possible that I do dump this at times) but I'm fairly sure I open raise it.
I'm guessing some of you guys don't?
I've always figured that I'm a better player post flop than 99% of my opponents. Any slightly -EV play I'm making preflop I feel I can make up postflop. I could be very, very wrong.
I'd be interested in seeing a "chart" (i can't believe I'm saying this) for 5/106max - merely to compare what I do with what "the standard player" does. |
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Posted: Sun, 01 Jan 2006, 8:58pm Post subject:
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i wouldn't mind a change...
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 4653
WPP: 91
Location: TagFish
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| euphoricism wrote: | | Sometimes it seems like I'm playing "any two face cards from any position" |
You and many of your opponents. I also see the "Any Ace from any position" raise as well as "any pair from any position."
If you were to play one table where you could really focus and get significant reads on your opponent, KJo could become a raise. But, I would much rather fold it, be able to play 4 tables at a time, and not include the variance. |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Jan 2006, 12:20pm Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 136
WPP: 48
Location: NZ
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The river in hand 1 is highly questionable. But you knew that when you did it.
I fold the flop in hand 7. |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Jan 2006, 3:26pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 1602
WPP: 105
Location: Party 6 max
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| euphoricism wrote: |
I'd be interested in seeing a "chart" (i can't believe I'm saying this) for 5/106max - merely to compare what I do with what "the standard player" does. |
EV Stats by pocket cards and position:
http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/positionStats.php?players=6
2p2 Starting hand chart for shorthanded games:
http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/#resources
The starting hand chart I don't recommend as a tool for your play of hands as much as a tool to understand the range of hands your (mostly good) opponents hold based on their preflop actions. That being said this is by far the closest chart to what I would consider the "default" actions for shorthanded play. |
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