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Posted: Sat, 31 Dec 2005, 9:54pm Post subject: Good check/raise situation?
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Straight
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 118
WPP: 209
Location: Oxford, PA
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Good spot for a check-raise? Worked well in this situation.
No read on MP3, as he just sat down.
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR Hand History Converter
Preflop: Hero is SB with 8 , 4. MP3 posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.
Flop: (12 SB) 7, 8 , Q (6 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.
Turn: (9 BB) Q (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, MP3 folds.
Final Pot: 10 BB |
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Posted: Sun, 01 Jan 2006, 5:16pm Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 136
WPP: 48
Location: NZ
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| That's the worst checkraise in the history of poker. |
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Posted: Sun, 01 Jan 2006, 6:02pm Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 118
WPP: 209
Location: Oxford, PA
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| 6high wrote: | | That's the worst checkraise in the history of poker. |
If you're going to post something like that, and you're not being sarcastic, then elaborate. Only reason I can think of for it not being a good option is because the pot is large. But even then, the flop is more or less uncoordinated, my hand is really vulnerable, so I'm facing the field with 7.5 to 1 pot odds. Unless you have a queen or an OESD (which I have no reason to believe at that point), you have no good reason to continue. Scared the pre-flop raiser as well, and he folded on the turn. I'm still working on recognizing good spots for check-raises, and I was checking to make sure this was called for.
If you were being sarcastic, then let me know and I'll disregard this. If not, then please explain. |
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Posted: Sun, 01 Jan 2006, 7:40pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 1968
WPP: 96
Location: 6max limit tables
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This is easy... Fold pre-flop so what if you in a blind I don't think you have the pot equity to call... as a rule of thumb you need to usually have 2 of 3 things going for hands in these spots… 1: high cards 2: suited 3: connected, you have 1, you are suited with absolutely no high card strength, and you’re no where near connected, 3 or 4 gapers are not connoted…
As I side note I think c/r on that flop with your hand is a complete spew... I might see doing this with A8 but even then probably not, because I auto put myself on 5 outs and by c/r you isolate where you want donks over calling to get odds... |
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Posted: Sun, 01 Jan 2006, 7:57pm Post subject:
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i wouldn't mind a change...
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 4653
WPP: 91
Location: TagFish
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| Well, preflop I think this is a fold. If it were 86s though my mind would be changed. On the flop I am preferring more a donk bet than anything, but your play worked for you. You've got 5 full outs probably and two backdoor draws, so I think folding this flop is criminal. I do like it better with A8, as its right out of SSH, but the way you played it wasn't too bad. |
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Posted: Sun, 01 Jan 2006, 8:12pm Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 118
WPP: 209
Location: Oxford, PA
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Alright, so fold preflop, and assuming I continued, I should have bet outright.
I guess I'm still confused as to when it is proper to use a check-raise. I keep reading the section on check-raises in both SSH and Theory of Poker, and I think I have it down, but this proves that I still don't. I know check-raises aren't used often, so if anyone has advice that will clarify what kind of situation prompts the use of a checkraise, I would appreciate it greatly. |
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Posted: Sun, 01 Jan 2006, 8:22pm Post subject:
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i wouldn't mind a change...
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 4653
WPP: 91
Location: TagFish
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Just realize one thing when you are against check raises and your up against check raises that many people probably know but never actually think it:
When an opponent check/raises the flop, especially a good opponent, its not because he likes his hand. Opponents check/raise flop because they have generally have weak holdings that they want to make look stronger to get people to fold. Check/raising on the turn signifies strength over protection. If you checkraised me in this situation, I'm either putting you on a weak Qx hand or another pair. Its usually not a bluff so you'll only get action when they have a better hand. Sometimes AK will call down for fun too unimproved. |
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Posted: Sun, 01 Jan 2006, 8:33pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 1968
WPP: 96
Location: 6max limit tables
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As the levels get higher you get 3 bet a lot more by more marginal hands here too... however at this level I think that you're behind when you get any action as Jeff said...
Jeff if you had AKs or AKo let’s say would you 3 bet and go for the free card unimproved assuming you are against a decent player... |
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Posted: Sun, 01 Jan 2006, 8:52pm Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 136
WPP: 48
Location: NZ
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| Romulus141 wrote: | | 6high wrote: | | That's the worst checkraise in the history of poker. |
If you're going to post something like that, and you're not being sarcastic, then elaborate. Only reason I can think of for it not being a good option is because the pot is large. But even then, the flop is more or less uncoordinated, my hand is really vulnerable, so I'm facing the field with 7.5 to 1 pot odds. Unless you have a queen or an OESD (which I have no reason to believe at that point), you have no good reason to continue. Scared the pre-flop raiser as well, and he folded on the turn. I'm still working on recognizing good spots for check-raises, and I was checking to make sure this was called for.
If you were being sarcastic, then let me know and I'll disregard this. If not, then please explain. |
1. You just check raised a pre flop raiser with 2nd pair, no kicker.
2. The flop is not uncoordinated.
3. Even if someone does have a hand, they are likely planning to checkraise anyway, their checks tell you nothing.
4. The pot is so big, that overcards, bottom pair and middle pair hands have enough odds (including implied) to call.
5. As soon as one of the above hands call, just about any hand can profitably call.
6. Your checkraise is likely to require a follow up bet on the turn, where you will still only be able to offer callers ~9:1 odds at worst.
You got very lucky.
Doing this with A8 is a much better play. It would be much more preferable that the pot be smaller and a little less coordinated.
When you play 84, you're not playing to make middle pair.
Just for the record: Betting this flop is terrible. |
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Posted: Thu, 26 Jan 2006, 3:41pm Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 61
WPP: 90
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| Is that you suppose to fold your 4-8suited to start with b/c of the raise and you are tottally out of position here? |
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Posted: Thu, 26 Jan 2006, 3:57pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3601
WPP: 98
Location: Your place or my place
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if I was BB i'd play this preflop, SB I wouldn't. Youre calling a raise and a half with 84s. I check call flop hoping to see an 8 a 4 or a spade. From there it plays differently.
Betting this flop does you absolutely no good. Pot this big, no one folding for one bet. The fact that your C/R worked simply means you were bluffing with the best hand.
If you really had balls, you'd have c/r'd the turn ;] |
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Posted: Thu, 26 Jan 2006, 4:42pm Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 118
WPP: 209
Location: Oxford, PA
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I wonder why my post from a month ago was suddenly resurrected...
Yeah, I realize how stupid that SB call and the checkraise was now. Live and learn. |
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