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SH v 2p2'rs

  
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Demiparadigm
Post Posted: Wed, 28 Dec 2005, 3:06am    Post subject: SH v 2p2'rs Reply with quote
4-of-a-Kind
4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 1602
WPP: 105
Location: Party 6 max
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (4 handed) FTR Hand History Converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9Club, TSpade.
1 fold, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 3Club, 8Heart, JSpade (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8Club (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 6Spade (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises,
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Ltrain
Post Posted: Wed, 28 Dec 2005, 8:59am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Flush
Flush

Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 484
WPP: 103
Location: Miami, Florida
By your play it looks like you put him on overcards; do you have a read that he can make the "big laydown". Meh, you only have to be right 1 out of every 7-8 times you try it, but I think this is spewage because the river is a non-threatening card. If I am in the SB with say A,K, I will suspect the river didn't help you and would have to decide if you had me beat from earlier streets. With this board shorthanded and HU, SB still probably calls your raise.
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elipsesjeff
Post Posted: Wed, 28 Dec 2005, 12:55pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
i wouldn't mind a change...
i wouldn't mind a change...

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 4571
WPP: 87
Location: TagFish
If I were SB I'm calling this river with any Ace or pair if I have any read on you. Raising the turn might be better for you as then you give him two chances to fold instead of only one here.
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Demiparadigm
Post Posted: Wed, 28 Dec 2005, 1:13pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
4-of-a-Kind
4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 1602
WPP: 105
Location: Party 6 max
elipsesjeff wrote:
If I were SB I'm calling this river with any Ace or pair if I have any read on you. Raising the turn might be better for you as then you give him two chances to fold instead of only one here.



But he knows that I know that he calls here with A high...
So if I expect him to call with A high, he should fold, right?
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elipsesjeff
Post Posted: Wed, 28 Dec 2005, 1:15pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
i wouldn't mind a change...
i wouldn't mind a change...

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 4571
WPP: 87
Location: TagFish
Demiparadigm wrote:
elipsesjeff wrote:
If I were SB I'm calling this river with any Ace or pair if I have any read on you. Raising the turn might be better for you as then you give him two chances to fold instead of only one here.



But he knows that I know that he calls here with A high...
So if I expect him to call with A high, he should fold, right?
Good luck with that. Smile
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|~|ypermegachi
Post Posted: Wed, 28 Dec 2005, 1:46pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
4-of-a-Kind
4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 3564
WPP: 78
Location: emo-kid
i prefer raising the turn instead of the river, probably only because you're semi-bluffing instead of pure-bluffing, and like jeff mentioned, 2 chances to fold him.
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koolmoe
Post Posted: Wed, 28 Dec 2005, 2:47pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Full House
Full House

Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1277
WPP: 105
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Raise the turn, follow through on the river.
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Demiparadigm
Post Posted: Fri, 30 Dec 2005, 3:28pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
4-of-a-Kind
4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 1602
WPP: 105
Location: Party 6 max
I understand the concept behind the turn raise. However, I feel this is a standard raise with any draw. It pairs the middle flop card and puts a flush draw on board. My opponent knows this is a great place to bluff, so he will often call the turn raise with just over cards. Remember this is only 4 handed, so often one pair is good at showdown. By the river, the pot is large enough that I have trapped him into calling the river with any good ace or better. I only need to be betting a busted draw 10% of the time for his call to be correct. For this reason I really don't like the turn raise. I think the best play may be to raise the flop, repping a pair, then continue on the turn.
Regardless, calling the turn and raising the river keeps the pot small, and once the river comes, he has no reason to call with just overcards trying to spike a pair. There are no more cards coming. So, his only concern is whether I am capable of bluff raising on the river. Again, I only have to raise this river with a busted draw 10% of the time for him to call, but a river stone bluff is much more rare than a turn semi bluff on a draw heavy board. This gives him a tough call with even a pair <6.
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elipsesjeff
Post Posted: Sat, 31 Dec 2005, 9:16pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
i wouldn't mind a change...
i wouldn't mind a change...

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 4571
WPP: 87
Location: TagFish
First off, you give your opponent way too much credit. He merely could be protecting his blind with any two cards man, as many 2+2ers would do.

Secondly, after looking at this board again, I'm not waiting for the turn to raise, I want to raise this on the flop, and I'd probably cap it if it would give a free river card.

Finally, the difference in raising the river over any other street is that it no more is a semi-bluff, and is hence considered a sole bluff. Semi-bluffs don't have to work nearly as much as a full bluff would. Your raise on the river would have to make your opponent fold more than 25% of the time for this to be correct. However, raising on the flop would only require your opponent to fold roughly 13% of the time for this raise to be correct, if not more if you count your implied odds in this situation. On a blind steal, you do not want your opponent to be 1) in control when you don't have a made hand, 2) seeing the river card for cheap and 3) have any money in on the final street which would tempt him to call. By the end of the hand, he only needs to win 10% of the time for his call on the river to be profitable, and given the likelihood of many opponents to not be able to bet/fold even King high at shorthanded 6 max games, your raise is -EV on the river.
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